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It Just Died......

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Just two days before the trip to the south of France for which I spent a small fortune on the H, and just as all the Team Mode practise was coming together beautifully, it's remains are now sitting on a table in the garden.
We were having a last flight before the trip, and I decided to let the second battery of the three run right down prior to popping it into the Lipo Bag. The H was hovering about 15' above us, about 20' away, over an open field, giving us 'Low Battery' warnings, voltage around the 14.0 mark. I figured I'd just let it land itself in it's own time. Instead, everything cut out in an instant, and it just plummeted to earth. I'm uploading the 'Remote' and 'Telemetry' files for the evening as a ZIP file, which hopefully some of you guys can pore over for clues. The only thing that is a bit weird is that two flights produced three files. The '157' files relate to the first battery, but during the second flight it seems to have created both '158' and '159' files, with about 50 seconds between the end of one and the beginning of the other.

I guess I give UAVision a call in the morning and see where we go from here......
 

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We were having a last flight before the trip, and I decided to let the second battery of the three run right down prior to popping it into the Lipo Bag. The H was hovering about 15' above us, about 20' away, over an open field, giving us 'Low Battery' warnings, voltage around the 14.0 mark. I figured I'd just let it land itself in it's own time. Instead, everything cut out in an instant, and it just plummeted to earth.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am puzzled.
Regardless of whether the H is supposed to 'land on it's own' when the battery drains or not, why on earth would you try to test this feature on purpose?
Letting a LiPo drop to 14.0 leaves each cell at 3.5v, which is pretty low. Storage should be at 3.8v per cell, so even if the H did land, and you then packed that battery away, you are not storing it at the recommended level, which may compromise the battery.
I wonder if those batteries have been drained too low too often and this one has eventually decided to 'pack it in'?
How do you usually store your LiPo's?
What type of charger and charging system are you using?

Like I said, please don't take what I have said the wrong way, but I am just trying to work out whether the battery in question may have been compromised in the past.

I do agree that the 'auto landing on low battery' should kick in a lot earlier and maybe this is something that Yuneec could work on in a future FW update, but I also think features like this are only to ever be used in a worse case scenario.

I also agree that the current 'stock' charger does not allow you to discharge a LiPo or even put a LiPo into storage charge. Omitting this feature has surely led to some LiPo's failing prematurely due to incorrect treatment of them, however, some ownership also needs to be placed on the end user as it should still be their responsibility to understand the equipment they are using.
 
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am puzzled.
Regardless of whether the H is supposed to 'land on it's own' when the battery drains or not, why on earth would you try to test this feature on purpose?
Letting a LiPo drop to 14.0 leaves each cell at 3.5v, which is pretty low. Storage should be at 3.8v per cell, so even if the H did land, and you then packed that battery away, you are not storing it at the recommended level, which may compromise the battery.
I wonder if those batteries have been drained too low too often and this one has eventually decided to 'pack it in'?
How do you usually store your LiPo's?
What type of charger and charging system are you using?

Like I said, please don't take what I have said the wrong way, but I am just trying to work out whether the battery in question may have been compromised in the past.

I do agree that the 'auto landing on low battery' should kick in a lot earlier and maybe this is something that Yuneec could work on in a future FW update, but I also think features like this are only to ever be used in a worse case scenario.

I also agree that the current 'stock' charger does not allow you to discharge a LiPo or even put a LiPo into storage charge. Omitting this feature has surely led to some LiPo's failing prematurely due to incorrect treatment of them, however, some ownership also needs to be placed on the end user as it should still be their responsibility to understand the equipment they are using.


not defending the fact that he was testing in a very risky situation . but 14v under load is not 3.5v storage .
when the load is removed the battery should come back up a good bit .

a loaded voltage is always going to be lower than its actual voltage .

i have a race drone . i can insert a fresh battery nail the throttle and get low battery warning but when i relax throttle battery voltage returns .
same with the H

when he landed it should have come back to a good voltage.

now as far as the reason it bombed . it could be a bad battery that should have not been run this low .

what was your resistance reading of each cell ?

NOTE : the manual does say :
If at any time the Aircraft Battery Voltage shown on the screen is
below 14.1V, land Typhoon H immediately.
 
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Over 100 voltage records has consistently established H batteries increase 0.3v after the load is removed. After a period if cooling time they increase a small amount more.

My guess has the OP running batteries down to low voltage levels often and may have finally learned why it should not be done. The educations best remembered are the ones you paid the most to obtain. There is a wealth of good, published lipo battery info available to anyone that wants to read it.
 
Thanks for the input guys.
Firstly, I was using the charger supplied with the drone. Secondly, as I was planning to take the drone to France as cabin baggage, and, despite having Lipo bags at the ready, I figured that the less energy stored in the batteries when in the cabin the better. I certainly don't routinely run them that low. I don't have the means to measure individual cell voltages. When I got the H one of the first tests that I did was just to hover it close to the ground, ignore the warnings, and see what it did. What it did was land itself without drama, and that's what I was expecting this time round.
Does anyone have any thoughts regarding the existence of two telemetry files for the same flight, with almost a minute of 'no telemetry' between them ?
 
NOTE : the manual does say
If at any time the Aircraft Battery Voltage shown on the screen is
below 14.1V, land Typhoon H immediately.:

My guess has the OP running batteries down to low voltage levels often and may have finally learned why it should not be done. The educations best remembered are the ones you paid the most to obtain. There is a wealth of good, published lipo battery info available to anyone that wants to read it.

Thanks for the input guys.
Firstly, I was using the charger supplied with the drone. ........... When I got the H one of the first tests that I did was just to hover it close to the ground, ignore the warnings, and see what it did. What it did was land itself without drama, and that's what I was expecting this time round.

All of this leads me to go with my initial instincts - battery taken down too low, or not monitored correctly, too many times which has led to the battery failing, hence the H 'fell from the sky'.

The lesson here for anyone who cares to read, is to make sure you look after your batteries.

This is definitely not a direct fault of the OP (Dodgey) as the charger supplied is not sufficient, however, every owner needs to do their bit and read up and understand as much as possible about these machines. Far too many 'faults' are a direct cause of lack of understanding or knowledge from the end user, and while the finger of blame can't be pointed directly at one party, it seems to be a mix of a barely adequate user manual, and/or a barely equipped user.
 
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Isn't it just supposed to land?

And if going into RTH..... what if the height for RTH was set at a fairly high above hovering altitude? Maybe the battery would drop dead if the H rushes into the sky to gain that alitude?
 
What charger/balancer would you recommend ? I guess it really makes sense to buy several batteries and get air time that way, fro what I understood so far , in my case the problems I had with the H had the battery low message in common. Does anyone know when the battery warnings come? At what voltage? I see that the ST16 will say descend to 200ft no matter what YOUR ACTUAL HEIGHT IS (in one case I was at around 6ft)
 
You know . I'm not sure where any of this autoland stuff on low battery came from . but looking at the manual it does not mention any of it . here is a exact quote from manual .

WARNING: Always land as soon as possible after the first low level voltage battery
warning, or land immediately after the second level low voltage battery warning
(as indicated by the vibrations and audible alerts from the
ST16 Ground Station, and by the Motor LED Status
Indicators flashing rapidly). If at any time the Aircraft Battery
Voltage shown on the screen is below 14.1V, land Typhoon H
immediately.
 
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This is why non intelligent batteries suck and it's the weakest part of the H package IMO. DJI use smart ones, Autel use em Yuneec use.....oh yeah. Given that duff battery = fall from sky i'm still surprised that Yuneec chose dumb batteries AND did not ship with a fully functional charger that will discharge etc.
 
All of this leads me to go with my initial instincts - battery taken down too low, or not monitored correctly, too many times which has led to the battery failing, hence the H 'fell from the sky'.

The lesson here for anyone who cares to read, is to make sure you look after your batteries.

This is definitely not a direct fault of the OP (Dodgey) as the charger supplied is not sufficient, however, every owner needs to do their bit and read up and understand as much as possible about these machines. Far too many 'faults' are a direct cause of lack of understanding or knowledge from the end user, and while the finger of blame can't be pointed directly at one party, it seems to be a mix of a barely adequate user manual, and/or a barely equipped user.

...........and inadequate battery/charger technology on the part of Yuneec. :p
 
You know . I'm not sure where any of this autoland stuff on low battery came from . but looking at the manual it does not mention any of it . here is a exact quote from manual .


I totally agree with the Manual.
The manual also states explicitly that the H will NOT go in RTH when the battery is low.

lol
 
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This is why non intelligent batteries suck and it's the weakest part of the H package IMO. DJI use smart ones, Autel use em Yuneec use.....oh yeah. Given that duff battery = fall from sky i'm still surprised that Yuneec chose dumb batteries AND did not ship with a fully functional charger that will discharge etc.
It's amazing I have flown for 15+ years with "dumb batteries" and yet have a failure due to a dumb battery. A smart battery or dumb battery ran dead will have same effect. The problem isn't the battery it's the way they are used. you think those little lights on the back of the battery will make the pilot land before it dies using some sort of jefi mind trick? No. Now a smart charger is well over due.
Just my 2cts
 
This is why non intelligent batteries suck and it's the weakest part of the H package IMO. DJI use smart ones, Autel use em Yuneec use.....oh yeah. Given that duff battery = fall from sky i'm still surprised that Yuneec chose dumb batteries AND did not ship with a fully functional charger that will discharge etc.

Not directed at you Nicholas, but applicable to all;

If people put just a little effort in understanding systems and components they could save themselves a lot of money. It was only a couple years ago that "smart" batteries were the exception and used only by one manufacturer. That manufacturer did not create them to make flying safer, but to lock people in to buying only one brand of battery to increase company profits. Those batteries are not any better, but do sell for roughly 3+ times the cost of a standard battery.

Monitoring batteries is not at all difficult, but it does require a user to "be involved" and maintain a basic level of awareness. I doubt that most using smart batteries perform any kind of performance tracking, don't have a clue for the number of charge and discharge cycles, trusting a technology intended more for extracting the most $ from their wallets as possible to protect them from themselves. With a smart battery, how do you determine if a battery, or the "smart" technology is failing? How do you establish individual cell voltages, IR, a pack's peak voltage degradation, cell balance, and other factors that establish battery condition? A series of lights only tells you a battery currently meets or fails a programmed minimum standard level.

We have all the tools, technology, and information readily available to effectively take care of our batteries. We have a constant voltage displayed on our control screens to monitor battery state, something many choose to ignore. We have a system in the H design that requires active engagement of the user yet people insist on being disengaged or trying to exceed the system's design limitations, and each carries a price to be paid.

We make choices when we purchase and use different systems. Those with the intelligence make those decisions based upon factors they determined best fit their needs and desires. During that decision making process we decided we were willing to be more than a passive participant, or not. We decide if we are willing to take and maintain control of our systems or trust that companies who's primary goal is to sell as much product as possible are putting our interests in front of theirs. Taking that a step further it's not difficult to discern that Yuneec's charger is designed more to assure people don't burn their house down when charging batteries. It's not designed or intended to do more than the minimum necessary to allow a user to use the aircraft while protecting the manufacturer from liability induced by, forgive me here, stupid, uneducated users. Could the charger be better? Sure it could but two things come to mind; users would have to learn how they worked and the package would cost more. It's been well documented that many users are lazy and refuse to learn much more about their systems than what switch to flip or "button" to push. We also know that people like to think and act "cheap" with "lowest price" being the prime qualifier in their decision making process.

What's interesting in all this is that a good battery has a very low probability of failing when reasonably cared for, yet the battery, or the system, is always blamed when the user failed to perform their "due diligence." More often than not, failures occur because a user is ignorant, lazy, cheap, or ignores warnings and instructions. At least one of those factors was involved in the incident initiating this thread. Actually, more than one was present.

We don't need over priced "smart" batteries, but we do need smart users. As said earlier, the tools are available. A good programmable, multiple chemistry charger costs $100.00-$150.00. A battery adapter runs $15.00-$20.00. An adapter just for checking batteries costs under $20.00. If standard batteries were used instead of a proprietary shell to assist in protecting users from themselves an adapter would not be needed at all. After that all that's needed is a brain. We all have one. We only need to use it.
 
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It's amazing I have flown for 15+ years with "dumb batteries" and yet have a failure due to a dumb battery. A smart battery or dumb battery ran dead will have same effect. The problem isn't the battery it's the way they are used. you think those little lights on the back of the battery will make the pilot land before it dies using some sort of jefi mind trick? No. Now a smart charger is well over due.
Just my 2cts

Indeed, smart batteries do not prevent failure, they do however lead to better battery health over all. Not everyone picking up a drone these days has 15 years of experience with Lipo's or Lion and know about discharge cycles etc. The battery is a vital part of the drone and I feel in this day it's cutting corners not to use smart tech to ASSIST in battery health.

That was my only point.
 
Nic, I think pat said it best.
I think others will have to disagree with smart batteries make a healthier battery. It still comes down to the user and as pat said user research is the key. Unfortunately, today to many people don't want to take the time to learn what is needed to do things, whether it is fly a drone, program a remote or use a toster. Most manuals are just tossed aside and the user just opens them when they have a problem ( I myself do this sometimes)
I think we need a sticky on the forum for just battery use and care. As then maybe new users will maybe just maybe read it.
Also, there are inexpensive devices out there that will work with the batteries to allow for charging on after market chargers. (I bought o e myself within the 1st week).they also have devices that with discharge the battery to the storage level for you also, no charger needed.
But as pat said the addition of the smart leds will just drive up the price of the already expensive battery.
Better education not smarter devices.
 
Nic, I think pat said it best.
I think others will have to disagree with smart batteries make a healthier battery. It still comes down to the user and as pat said user research is the key. Unfortunately, today to many people don't want to take the time to learn what is needed to do things, whether it is fly a drone, program a remote or use a toster. Most manuals are just tossed aside and the user just opens them when they have a problem ( I myself do this sometimes)
I think we need a sticky on the forum for just battery use and care. As then maybe new users will maybe just maybe read it.
Also, there are inexpensive devices out there that will work with the batteries to allow for charging on after market chargers. (I bought o e myself within the 1st week).they also have devices that with discharge the battery to the storage level for you also, no charger needed.
But as pat said the addition of the smart leds will just drive up the price of the already expensive battery.
Better education not smarter devices.

I disagree, a battery that can discharge itself to correct storage voltage Vs one that can't and so in many cases isn't is likely to last longer. The technology is ready available and is used by other manufacturers and so price is not a factor. A battery for the H in the UK costs £109.99, a smart battery for my Autel XSP costs £105.00.

I'm not arguing that smart batteries should replace due diligence and care. :)
 
If you feel that way it's highly likely a Yuneec system is not for you. Most choose the H because it works the way it does, not because it mimics something else. If people want DJI or Autel features they should be intelligent enough to select them when making a purchase.

The effort required to learn about batteries requires but an hour of time. Learning how to use a good charger about the same. Many people flying multirotors fly more than one brand of multirotor. They use more than one size of battery. A single charger can and does service all of their batteries, from a single cell 50mA up to a 6 or 8 cell 20,000+mA battery. They can swap batteries between systems if they desire because connectors and maintenance is common between them. They may also be using those same batteries in other devices not associated with flight, or with different kinds of flying machines. They have no problems in doing this because their intelligence exceeds that of a battery and a willingness to be involved.

As for pricing, an H battery can be had for $55.00 with a proprietary shell but with a plain wrapper and standard plugs it would cost but ~$35.00. An Autel battery about the same in plain wrapper and common connectors. DJI not much more. How much more flight time could you have if you could afford more batteries? Would people be less prone to running a battery down to dangerous levels if they had more of them? Personally, I have batteries costing more than $500.00 each using dumb technology that still function perfectly after a couple years of use. There is no need to add additional costs for "smart" technology when they function so well as is.

People blaming batteries for their own failures say much that reflects on their rationality and learning capability. They may well be involved in an activity that exceeds their capabilities. They are also acknowledging they have been conditioned to believe batteries are smarter than they are.

Not that long ago a person died in a collision with a truck while driving a Tesla set on auto pilot. The Tesla had provided numerous warnings for the driver to take manual control but those warnings were ignored. Was the car at fault or the driver? The tragedy reminds me of a line in the movie Top Gun where Goose references a letter that would be sent to surviving next of kin. "We regret to inform you that your son has died because he was stupid".
 
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If you feel that way it's highly likely a Yuneec system is not for you. Most choose the H because it works the way it does, not because it mimics something else. If people want DJI or Autel features they should be intelligent enough to select them when making a purchase".

A rather asinine remark I own an H, have since November and I love it. My opinion on Yuneecs choice to not make use of a helpful technology does not relegate me to the "It's not for you then" group. Sure if smart Lipo was on my must have list then yes, I wouldn't have bought one, but I did my research and knew full well it didn't.

Once again, and for the last time, I will reiterate my point about "smart" batteries:- They do not in and of themselves replace being educated about battery care and neither do they prevent failure. They do add an extra layer of ease of care and record keeping, such as number of charge cycles etc, especially for people who do not own multiple devices that use non proprietary batteries, or believe it or not simply don't know any better.

GPS and collision avoidance are, like smart batteries, are added features which while not required to fly a drone do go along way to making a drone that has those features better for it. Veterans of the RC world are welcome to opine about the merits of older technology, and their experience is always welcomed by those of us happy to learn, but it doesn't mean Yuneec couldn't have shipped a charger capable of discharging, or made use of smart batteries and added an extra $50 to the retail.

safe flying :)
 
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CONCLUSION:
A somewhat traumatic day ! I phoned UAVision (The drone shop at Devizes who supplied the Typhoon) and they gave me a number for Yuneec UK, and they were nothing less than brilliant ! The guys at Yuneec asked me to send through the files for the last 6 flights. 90 minutes later they were on the phone to say that they were agreeing to a full replacement under warranty, as there appeared to be an issue with the mainboard. They warned me that I might have to travel to Barnet to collect, but that they would see if they could find one closer to home. Another hour passed before I was asked to take the old one to Castle Cameras at Dursley and do the swap there. Thus I had a brand-new replacement in my hands less than 7 hours after my original phone call. The new one has been initialised, and has been powered up 'props off', and the camera has been tested. The maiden flight will however have to wait until we get to France. Truly you could not ask for better service, and I am profoundly grateful to all concerned.

Acquiring a little perspective on what last night appeared to be an unmitigated disaster (albeit on the 'no-one actually died' scale of things) I realise that I was actually quite fortunate, in that it happened somewhere where it fell to earth under my nose in a field, as opposed to, say, the bottom of the Canal du Midi, and it that it did so when there was JUST time to organise replacement before our holiday. It remains however a sobering thought that such a fault could in theory cause ANY drone to fall out of the sky at ANY time !

All I need to do now however is bring some decent footage home from France. Interesting discussion on batteries in the meantime though.....
 

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