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Toilet bowl and cold weather?

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Hello.

Had a curious incident today. After around 4 minutes of flight copter started to noticeably wander. Feeling cautious i started to bring the bird back to me when suddenly i felt that it responds to sticks not the way i expect it to. Next thing, after releasing the sticks, it goes into increasing toilet-bowl. Luckily there was enough space to react: kill the gps (I really really hate that guy who stuck it so far into the menu) and bring the bird down unharmed.

After analyzing the telemetry i was surprised by some peculiar yaw values. But no compass errors were present (except those when raising / lowering landing gear). Neither did the controller alert me in any way.

In any case - bird had a dozen or more flight before without any bigger incidents. Yes, it sometimes had done some strange things like needing some roll compensation to fly straight (i attributed that to crosswind) or once it flew in slight diagonal during RTH (landed properly nose away from me though). But no such issue before with this bird (I had a similar incident though in the past with another H, when the compass went nuts twice in exactly the same place. Still unsure whether it was faulty module / calibration or some place-related anomaly, maybe because of a near-by transformer or hydro power plant. The bird was exchanged for reasons unrelated to that).

What was different from all previous times was the fact that i was flying in around 0'C temperature. So my question to the audience would be:

* Has anyone done numerous flights with H in near 0'C or slightly below temperatures. By that i mean in tens or more, not a few occasional flights. Did you experience any problems not occurring before which you would attribute to the outside temperature? Or have all flights been stable as usual?

* Does the temperature also affect IMU? Should i re-calibrate the compass when ambient temp drops / rises a certain number of degrees? The IMU warmup warning did came on and took a couple of seconds to clear. From that i so far had assumed that the low ambient temperature should not require any special treatment.

And yes, i do not exclude that the previous compass calibration i had done recently was poor. However the bird had a few short flights after that without any such issue. In fact during the same morning it was rock solid stable and landed practically with centimeter precision where i wanted it to. So this wasn't the first thing i thought about.

Telemetry attached for those who might take an interest in this.
 

Attachments

  • Telemetry_00112.csv.txt
    1.2 MB · Views: 11
I’ve done many repetitive flights at 0C and lower with zero control or compass issues. The battery runs down a lot faster but that is normal for lipos in cold. If you had centimeter precision for auto landing, chalk that up to luck.
 
I have flown in cold weather as well and have seen the shorter flight times but never any control issues. I see nothing in the telemetry which would be cause for alarm other than the sudden change in heading (yaw). That occurred about 1 sec after the motors were shut down and the heading changed from 76 deg to 151 deg. That is concerning. It would be well to check previous flights to see if that is a pattern.
Turning off the GPS at that critical moment was superb judgement at a time when many pilots would have panicked. Good Job.
 
Thanks for the replies.

The batteries running down faster is obvious in this temperature and i do account for that. I never run them down to the warning anyway, but keep 3-5 mins of flight time to spare. Had i run them down to the warning when my first compass glitch occurred, that H would probably be at the bottom of the lake now.

What i was actually interested in was other people's (hopefully) positive experience. To know whether to take some special care when flying in the cold or avoid flying at all. Or attribute it to a glitch / poor calibration.

This sudden change of yaw is a first that i had noticed. However i will be going over previous flights again now and analyzing them more thoroughly. I'll also sync it wit the radio telemetry to check the stick input and see if i can determine at what point the yaw error built up. At first it was stable.

And yes, i know that centimeter precision is not to be expected :) It was meant to illustrate the difference in behaviour. Although i do like to think that optical flow helps somehow, because H drifts less during landings at daytime compared to landings in the dark.
 
I'll also sync it wit the radio telemetry to check the stick input and see if i can determine at what point the yaw error built up.
Syncing the telemetry to the remote log is difficult. As the distance between the ST16 and H increases the lag between the times increases as well. Also the number of lines recorded per second are different which adds another obstacle to syncing the two. If you allow a certain amount of "slop" then you can get close enough to get meaningful information. Do you have the channel information for the remote logs?
 
I had this Typhoon H toilet bowl on me recently. I quickly turned off GPS to save it. However, what I've notice is that in some areas where I fly there are what I like to call, "Dead zones." At these places, I've notice that if the satellite count for the ST16 falls below 10 whilst flying the H, Toilet bowling and other weird behavior occurs. So, what I would suggest is that you keep your eye on that ST16 gps satellite count and make sure it is well above 10 satellites at all times. Again, this is the ST16 satellite count not the Typhoon H satellite count.
Never had encountered such a situation, but i'll be better prepared if it happens. It makes sense in a way - if ST16 GPS is affected then probably the H-s is too. Have you checked the telemetry for HDOP afterwards? Weird that it results in a toilet bowl. I'd expect GPS inaccuracy to affect only hovering.

Syncing the telemetry to the remote log is difficult. As the distance between the ST16 and H increases the lag between the times increases as well. Also the number of lines recorded per second are different which adds another obstacle to syncing the two. If you allow a certain amount of "slop" then you can get close enough to get meaningful information. Do you have the channel information for the remote logs?
I've found some information in Q500log2kml docs. Unless you have something better to offer i think that'll do :)

I imagined some lag being involved between telemetry and remote log, however i did not anticipate it to noticeably increase with the distance. I'll take that into account, thanks.

Luckily i did not change the copter's orientation using yaw that much this time, so this may make it easier for me, as it should provide some reference points in the stick input v.s. attitude. I don't plan to go for millisecond precision, just maybe get some insight about when and how it might have happened. I'm not sure that this will provide some concrete conclusion or even help me in the end. But i hate to sit still just guessing without having any real answers.

Curious, what flight mode was it in?
Angle.
 
Last edited:
Luckily i did not change the copter's orientation using yaw that much this time,
The yaw change I saw in the telemetry was after the H was on the ground. It occurred just after the motors were shut down. That is why I mention it as a concern. If you look at some previous flights look for the lines near the end of the file where the flight mode changes from 3 to 16. The yaw should not change at that point because the bird is on the ground.
 

Attachments

  • Remote Telemetry.txt
    690 bytes · Views: 3
The yaw change I saw in the telemetry was after the H was on the ground. It occurred just after the motors were shut down. That is why I mention it as a concern. If you look at some previous flights look for the lines near the end of the file where the flight mode changes from 3 to 16. The yaw should not change at that point because the bird is on the ground.

I saw that one. That was a clear indication that something is wrong and among the first things that prompted me to even ask this question here. No idea which of the values is correct, though (if any). It didn't occur to me to make a forward-facing photo for a reference at that moment. Nor did i had time to switch on video recording when the bowl started or during landing when i constantly had to control the bird.

What i was aiming to find was some kind of yaw offset buildup during the flight, which might explain slowly started and quickly progressed toiletbowl. However it later occured to me that it's a futile attempt. I don't know of a way to determine from stick input the amount of intended yaw, there is no accelerometer data in telemetry and I also don't have a reference point for a real heading to detect inconsistency with the compass. Even if there was some kind of error buildup - the copter would just attempt to correct itself and it would not show on the heading value. Like it does when altimeter drifts. So my "bright idea" was not so bright in the end.

I will go over the historical data with a fine-tooth comb. However i doubt that i will find anything there like that "after motor stop glitch". I have a habit of reviewing the telemetry (courtesy of UAV Toolbox) after flights. I'm quite sure i would have detected this kind of error earlier.

Right now i think i don't have any other option than to re-calibrate compass with greater care, wait for a good weather, do some testflights (preferably once in the same location) and if the problem won't present itself anymore then attribute it to poorly calibrated compass. Although i doubt that the problem is location-related as i've flown there before without any incident.
 
I also don't have a reference point for a real heading to detect inconsistency with the compass.
The Yaw in the telemetry is the compass heading so if you fly the compass points you should see that reflected in the telemetry.
 
Quick questions...
what altitude did you notice the unexpected flight path?
If at low altitude, did you try gaining altitude?

One more... is this truly a “toilet bowl” implying a more violent circular flight path as though spinning out of control, or rather an oval pattern that tends to grow in dimension, or drift?

I had an incident last winter. Sunny skies, crisp air, below freezing. Oval pattern started at about 4-5 feet. Inexperience led me to try and land immediately, only to flip over when the motors would not stop. Although I could not reproduce on demand, I did learn to abort and try again if I noticed anything amiss on future landings. If the pattern started, gaining altitude to at least ten feet stabilized everything.

Many flights with two craft in temps in the teens or lower (F) without incident.

Hope all confidence returns!

Jeff
 
Quick questions...
what altitude did you notice the unexpected flight path?
If at low altitude, did you try gaining altitude?

One more... is this truly a “toilet bowl” implying a more violent circular flight path as though spinning out of control, or rather an oval pattern that tends to grow in dimension, or drift?

I had an incident last winter. Sunny skies, crisp air, below freezing. Oval pattern started at about 4-5 feet. Inexperience led me to try and land immediately, only to flip over when the motors would not stop. Although I could not reproduce on demand, I did learn to abort and try again if I noticed anything amiss on future landings. If the pattern started, gaining altitude to at least ten feet stabilized everything.

Many flights with two craft in temps in the teens or lower (F) without incident.

Hope all confidence returns!

Jeff

It started with me positioning the craft for a shot. Through the camera i noticed a small instability - i'm not even sure if it was drifting or a circular pattern. Didn't seem right, so to avoid any further problems i started to return the craft (manually). As i steered it closer to me the craft started noticeably to roll by itself. When i let go off the sticks it managed to continue a bit in that circular pattern (although not violent) until i killed the GPS.

I was first at 60m (196ft) give or take, then descended to 50m (164ft) when the incident occurred. I couldn't gain much altitude there as i was flying in a populated area with obstructions near. The risk of gaining altitude would have been bird going behind an obstruction and me losing whatever control signal i have. Considering all pros and cons if nothing else would have worked i would have rather descended and made as controlled as possible crash into a tree, ground or pond or even killed engines mid-flight and let it drop. Doing that and sucking up the costs would be better than damaging some property or possibly even hurting someone by it going completely out of control. On top of that - legally i need a special permission and a call to ATC to fly above 60m in that area. So gaining altitude was not an option this time. Also the environment didn't leave much space or time to experiment - i had to get it down safely the quickest way possible.
 
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It started with me positioning the craft for a shot. Through the camera i noticed a small instability - i'm not even sure if it was drifting or a circular pattern. Didn't seem right, so to avoid any further problems i started to return the craft (manually). As i steered it closer to me the craft started noticeably to roll by itself. When i let go off the sticks it managed to continue a bit in that circular pattern (although not violent) until i killed the GPS.

I was first at 60m (196ft) give or take, then descended to 50m (164ft) when the incident occurred. I couldn't gain much altitude there as i was flying in a populated area with obstructions near. The risk of gaining altitude would have been bird going behind an obstruction and me losing whatever control signal i have. Considering all pros and cons if nothing else would have worked i would have rather descended and made as controlled as possible crash into a tree, ground or pond or even killed engines mid-flight and let it drop. Doing that and sucking up the costs would be better than damaging some property or possibly even hurting someone by it going completely out of control. On top of that - legally i need a special permission and a call to ATC to fly above 60m in that area. So gaining altitude was not an option this time. Also the environment didn't leave much space or time to experiment - i had to get it down safely the quickest way possible.


Thanks for the explanation. Completely different scenario as far as altitude is concerned. If near the ground when the oscillating pattern starts, gaining altitude should help regain stability. But already at altitude, well...

Thanks again for the additional description of your incident. Agree with your assessment of the situation and action plan.

Jeff
 
When close to the ground (<10') some instability should be expected. There is a matter of prop thrust reflecting off the ground, roiling the air under the aircraft.
 
I have the same thing going on, and it's not prop wash that's for sure. Given that it flies in 30mph winds just fine, I haven't had any issues with the amount of prop wash you get with it close to the ground. Curious to know what FW you are on. If it's the latest then there are others in the same boat with you, myself included.
 
Hello.

Had a curious incident today. After around 4 minutes of flight copter started to noticeably wander. Feeling cautious i started to bring the bird back to me when suddenly i felt that it responds to sticks not the way i expect it to. Next thing, after releasing the sticks, it goes into increasing toilet-bowl. Luckily there was enough space to react: kill the gps (I really really hate that guy who stuck it so far into the menu) and bring the bird down unharmed.

After analyzing the telemetry i was surprised by some peculiar yaw values. But no compass errors were present (except those when raising / lowering landing gear). Neither did the controller alert me in any way.

In any case - bird had a dozen or more flight before without any bigger incidents. Yes, it sometimes had done some strange things like needing some roll compensation to fly straight (i attributed that to crosswind) or once it flew in slight diagonal during RTH (landed properly nose away from me though). But no such issue before with this bird (I had a similar incident though in the past with another H, when the compass went nuts twice in exactly the same place. Still unsure whether it was faulty module / calibration or some place-related anomaly, maybe because of a near-by transformer or hydro power plant. The bird was exchanged for reasons unrelated to that).

What was different from all previous times was the fact that i was flying in around 0'C temperature. So my question to the audience would be:

* Has anyone done numerous flights with H in near 0'C or slightly below temperatures. By that i mean in tens or more, not a few occasional flights. Did you experience any problems not occurring before which you would attribute to the outside temperature? Or have all flights been stable as usual?

* Does the temperature also affect IMU? Should i re-calibrate the compass when ambient temp drops / rises a certain number of degrees? The IMU warmup warning did came on and took a couple of seconds to clear. From that i so far had assumed that the low ambient temperature should not require any special treatment.

And yes, i do not exclude that the previous compass calibration i had done recently was poor. However the bird had a few short flights after that without any such issue. In fact during the same morning it was rock solid stable and landed practically with centimeter precision where i wanted it to. So this wasn't the first thing i thought about.

Telemetry attached for those who might take an interest in this.

I had that happen last year with a new Typhoon H. I updated the Firmware that solved most of the issue. If that dosen’t work contact Yuneec’s Customer support.
 
GREETINGS ALL Yuneec (H) Pilots !
Our small startup UAV (drone) engineering firm (based in Minneapolis, with satellite offices just west of Chicago) has nearly 20 Yuneec drones, some of them our beloved Q500's and G's, and most of them the wonderful H series...

We've been experiencing this "toilet bowling" on only some (not all ) of them, and under the same environmental conditions:
  • never in warm weather; but
  • when weather dips (well) below freezing (eg 20 F or -5 C or colder)
  • even after repeated successful flights in very same locations.

UPSHOT:
  • it's NOT about location, because same bird flys perfectly on other days/seasons;
  • it's NOT about ALL the birds, because some (most) of our H's fly PERFECTLY, EVERYWHERE

THEORY:
- it MAY be about SOFTWARE ONLY... but that would demand that ALL H's without the update would show this behavior... and they DON'T :-|

THEORY:
  • it MAY be about COMPONENTS ONLY... so that only those H's with particular components (eg compass, GPS, flight controller, remote controller) from a particular VENDOR and particular BATCH would display these symptoms.
  • the ONLY way to know this is for ALL of us to SHARE SERIAL NUMBERS & COMPONENT INFORMATION HERE, so that we're helping Yuneec

PROPOSED:
Our firm will post the following bird-specific information, hoping others with problems (and even without) will do the same:
BIRD MODEL
SERIAL NUMBER
DATE OF PURCHASE
FLIGHT CONTROLLER DETAILS
GPS DETAILS
COMPASS DETAILS
REMOTE CONTROLLER DETAILS (ie, ST16 details)

I can't think of any better, surer approach to isolating the True Root Cause of this often-dangerous phenomenon.

WORKAROUND FOR WHEN IT HAPPENS:
  1. GAIN altitude (note: at this time we're still NOT sure if it's the ALTITUDE which helps or the INCREASE IN INTERNAL BIRD (electronics) TEMPERATURE caused by the HEAT generated by quickly gaining altitude, we simply know it helps);
  2. HOVER while
DISABLE GPS so you're on full manual then
3. MANUALLY LAND

WATCH for us to post details in the near future.

- Mark | NORTH AMERICAN ROBOTICS | [email protected]
 

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