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Corkscrew effect when landing...

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Hi Guys. As I'm new to all this, I wondered if I am correct on thinking that when you get the corkscrew effect on landing the H, it may be caused to having different weights of blades? I have had a few crashes learning to land manually - who hasn't? And I brought some other propellor's and fitted them alongside the remaining original propellor's I had from Yuneec. I had this corkscrew effect when landing a couple of times and then it occurred to me today that the weight of the propellor's to blame. Am I correct?
I have attempted to make a short video of this, only my second attempt at such things... bear with me.
All comments appreciated.
 
I have seen this as well and I am 100% sure that it is self induced and not a failing of the typhoon H.
I have found that while depressing the stick to the "down" position it is very easy to pull or push it ever so slightly to the left or right. The dead zone is quite small. This will cause a slight spin but is easy to correct by moving the stick to correct it.
 
The first time it happened I was in Return to Home mode and noticed it then, I flew with the same blades today and got the same result. It was not a major problem but something I will try to avoid in the future.
 
Hi Guys. As I'm new to all this, I wondered if I am correct on thinking that when you get the corkscrew effect on landing the H, it may be caused to having different weights of blades? I have had a few crashes learning to land manually - who hasn't? And I brought some other propellor's and fitted them alongside the remaining original propellor's I had from Yuneec. I had this corkscrew effect when landing a couple of times and then it occurred to me today that the weight of the propellor's to blame. Am I correct?
I have attempted to make a short video of this, only my second attempt at such things... bear with me.
All comments appreciated.
[/QUOTE

A few investigative questions:

  1. What happens when you abort your landing and either hover, or gain altitude and hover?
  2. Does the corkscrew or oscillating flight pattern stop or subside?
  3. If it is only when you try to land, at what altitude do you notice the effect initiate?
  4. Does your "manual" landing imply turning off GPS or are you stating your manual landing is different than using the Return to Home to land?
Previous posters have experience the "oscillating flight" characteristic typically at low levels, under five or six feet (or 1-2 meters). Gaining altitude can reduce or stop the oscillating altogether before another landing attempt.

Turning off GPS has also been found to quiet the oscillations, leading some of us to believe the issue is in part due to compass/GPS issues. Since it is rarely a "solid" failure, interference, RF noise, GPS reflections, et al, are being considered as likely culprits.

The investigations are ongoing, but the recommended mitigation still remains "gain altitude and try again!".

Jeff
 
Hi Jeff

As I am still a novice my description may not be that technical.

When I abort the landing and hover, then the corkscrew stops.
It is only when I try to land, I will have to look at the files to determine when the H starts to oscillate.
My interpretation of manual landing is not using the Return to Home but still have GPs on and landing the craft using the sticks.
Sorry for being a bit green with all the tech speak, but getting there.

My suggestion about the propellors was only due to the replacement blades that I put on were not as rigid (more flexible) than the original Yuneec blades which is why I thought that maybe that is what is causing this effect.
 
Hi Jeff

As I am still a novice my description may not be that technical.

When I abort the landing and hover, then the corkscrew stops.
It is only when I try to land, I will have to look at the files to determine when the H starts to oscillate.
My interpretation of manual landing is not using the Return to Home but still have GPs on and landing the craft using the sticks.
Sorry for being a bit green with all the tech speak, but getting there.

My suggestion about the propellors was only due to the replacement blades that I put on were not as rigid (more flexible) than the original Yuneec blades which is why I thought that maybe that is what is causing this effect.

BB,

No apologies necessary. Some of us are also still shaded a bit green and are learning every day.

Thanks for the additional detail. Sounds like you are experiencing exactly what others of us have experienced. I started calling it "oscillation flight" as the typical term "toilet bowl" seems way too violent a description for what we are seeing.

I doubt the props have any influence here. What I suggest, and others will likely chime in... try re-calibrating your compass, ensuring you are away from structures, interference sources, and the like. Take the props off (if you haven't before), and follow the instructions. It may take a few times to get it right (the process). You have 30 seconds to complete the exercise. See if this helps. In my particular craft, it was not a solid issue. If your's is, my bet is the calibration is off.

Another tidbit: Make sure you know, pre-flight, how to quickly access the onscreen menu to turn off GPS. If after you try a couple landings you still cannot get steady descent without oscillations:

  1. Gain altitude again and stabilize.
  2. Turn off GPS.
  3. Attempt landing again. Be aware you are on your own to fight any wind.
The above will likely result in a good, uneventful landing.

With GPS off, and no oscillating flight, your calibrations are likely suspect. Of course. if all this fails, contact Yuneec. They may ask for your files. There is always the possibility of faulty electronics.

Hope this helps!

Jeff
 
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How much previous experience do you have with a 4 channel plus, two stick RC transmitter? The answer will have some bearing later.

The flight controller directs the ESC's to provide a proportional amount of power to the different motors based upon the commands being input at the RC controller. What happens when your fingers are off the sticks is determined by the state of trim the various channels are in. If, when checking channel settings, you find all are at "zero" when your fingers are off the sticks, the flight controller (FC) will be telling the ESC's (electronic speed controllers) to maintain position with the H. Essentially telling it to do nothing that would change what it is doing, but keep it where it is, as it is. Best time to check these settings is with the H on the ground with the motors off. It may drift a little bit in any direction due to wind effects but it will be generally stable. There will be no "twist" which is known as "Yaw", no Roll, or side to side motion, and no Pitch, which is forward and aft motion, and altitude will be generally maintained because the throttle stick would be in the center position.

The weight and pitch of the propellers will not matter unless there were extreme differences because the FC is telling each motor what speed they need to run at to maintain equilibrium. It will have each motor run at a completely different speed to maintain that state. That's pretty much how it all works even with perfectly matched props. It's a very, very rare event when all the motors would be running at the same speed.

When the H is close to the ground, say about 3'-5' or so, there is quite a bit of turbulence under it do to the down wash effects of the propellers. This will make the H "dance" just a little bit. That amount of movement is relatively small, and it is totally unreasonable to expect things to function absolutely smoothly when close to the ground. That's why experienced operators leave the ground and gain altitude quickly to rise out of the turbulent effect of the propellers at or very near ground level.

Back to that experience thing. If when you are flying you put the H into a hover about 12'-15' off the ground and take your hands off the sticks, does the aircraft yaw? If not then it is well trimmed and changes only occur when you command them. If you have activated the "cruise control" function you might have accidentally pushed one of the forward/aft, right/left trim buttons on the D pad and now have the H slightly out of trim but those trim pads do not input yaw. Worse case would have the H moving a little to one side or the other or forward and back with your hands off the sticks with no yawing motion. So we can rule out the trim pads as a possible cause of unwanted yaw. Now, while in that 12'-15' hover, put your hands back on the sticks and move the H one direction or the other a little bit while maintaining that altitude. Stop the movement but keep your hands on the sticks. Does the H now yaw? If so you found the cause, which I strongly suspect will be the case. The cause is you because your left thumb is applying just a little bit of side pressure on the stick. It does not take much to initiate and maintain a slow yaw.

While descending to land the H will not yaw unless it is being told to do so. When close to the ground the H will move from side to side and forward/aft a little bit because of prop wash turbulence, but it does not yaw. Practice, practice, and more practice is what overcomes this problem. Learn your transmitter, and a big part of that is learning how sensitive the sticks are to command input, where "center" stick is for each one, a position where nothing is changing because the sticks were not deflected enough to initiate a change. That location is very, very small, which means when you desire small amounts of change you need to apply very small pressure on the sticks, and do so slowly and smoothly. One of the most difficult things to learn in RC is how to fly straight and level. With multirotors that changes a little bit to flying a straight line in any direction. Why? because people new to the activity do not realize then when they think they are commanding straight line flight they are also inputting a little side control on the sticks when trying for that straight line. So their straight line looks more like a curve. Find your centers and learn how to remain within them.

It's not too hard, is fun, and just takes a little time and practice. Oh, don't mix propeller types. That's never a good idea because it forces the FC and ESC's to work harder. A lot harder. The only time a mix of propellers is used is on coaxial configurations (upper and lower motors on a single arm) where the top and bottom props might be of different sizes. However, all the tops will be of one size and type while all of the bottom props will be the same in another size and type.
 
How much previous experience do you have with a 4 channel plus, two stick RC transmitter? The answer will have some bearing later.

The flight controller directs the ESC's to provide a proportional amount of power to the different motors based upon the commands being input at the RC controller. What happens when your fingers are off the sticks is determined by the state of trim the various channels are in. If, when checking channel settings, you find all are at "zero" when your fingers are off the sticks, the flight controller (FC) will be telling the ESC's (electronic speed controllers) to maintain position with the H. Essentially telling it to do nothing that would change what it is doing, but keep it where it is, as it is. Best time to check these settings is with the H on the ground with the motors off. It may drift a little bit in any direction due to wind effects but it will be generally stable. There will be no "twist" which is known as "Yaw", no Roll, or side to side motion, and no Pitch, which is forward and aft motion, and altitude will be generally maintained because the throttle stick would be in the center position.

The weight and pitch of the propellers will not matter unless there were extreme differences because the FC is telling each motor what speed they need to run at to maintain equilibrium. It will have each motor run at a completely different speed to maintain that state. That's pretty much how it all works even with perfectly matched props. It's a very, very rare event when all the motors would be running at the same speed.

When the H is close to the ground, say about 3'-5' or so, there is quite a bit of turbulence under it do to the down wash effects of the propellers. This will make the H "dance" just a little bit. That amount of movement is relatively small, and it is totally unreasonable to expect things to function absolutely smoothly when close to the ground. That's why experienced operators leave the ground and gain altitude quickly to rise out of the turbulent effect of the propellers at or very near ground level.

Back to that experience thing. If when you are flying you put the H into a hover about 12'-15' off the ground and take your hands off the sticks, does the aircraft yaw? If not then it is well trimmed and changes only occur when you command them. If you have activated the "cruise control" function you might have accidentally pushed one of the forward/aft, right/left trim buttons on the D pad and now have the H slightly out of trim but those trim pads do not input yaw. Worse case would have the H moving a little to one side or the other or forward and back with your hands off the sticks with no yawing motion. So we can rule out the trim pads as a possible cause of unwanted yaw. Now, while in that 12'-15' hover, put your hands back on the sticks and move the H one direction or the other a little bit while maintaining that altitude. Stop the movement but keep your hands on the sticks. Does the H now yaw? If so you found the cause, which I strongly suspect will be the case. The cause is you because your left thumb is applying just a little bit of side pressure on the stick. It does not take much to initiate and maintain a slow yaw.

While descending to land the H will not yaw unless it is being told to do so. When close to the ground the H will move from side to side and forward/aft a little bit because of prop wash turbulence, but it does not yaw. Practice, practice, and more practice is what overcomes this problem. Learn your transmitter, and a big part of that is learning how sensitive the sticks are to command input, where "center" stick is for each one, a position where nothing is changing because the sticks were not deflected enough to initiate a change. That location is very, very small, which means when you desire small amounts of change you need to apply very small pressure on the sticks, and do so slowly and smoothly. One of the most difficult things to learn in RC is how to fly straight and level. With multirotors that changes a little bit to flying a straight line in any direction. Why? because people new to the activity do not realize then when they think they are commanding straight line flight they are also inputting a little side control on the sticks when trying for that straight line. So their straight line looks more like a curve. Find your centers and learn how to remain within them.

It's not too hard, is fun, and just takes a little time and practice. Oh, don't mix propeller types. That's never a good idea because it forces the FC and ESC's to work harder. A lot harder. The only time a mix of propellers is used is on coaxial configurations (upper and lower motors on a single arm) where the top and bottom props might be of different sizes. However, all the tops will be of one size and type while all of the bottom props will be the same in another size and type.


Thanks, will bear this in mind... and do some trials.
 
How much previous experience do you have with a 4 channel plus, two stick RC transmitter? The answer will have some bearing later.

The flight controller directs the ESC's to provide a proportional amount of power to the different motors based upon the commands being input at the RC controller. What happens when your fingers are off the sticks is determined by the state of trim the various channels are in. If, when checking channel settings, you find all are at "zero" when your fingers are off the sticks, the flight controller (FC) will be telling the ESC's (electronic speed controllers) to maintain position with the H. Essentially telling it to do nothing that would change what it is doing, but keep it where it is, as it is. Best time to check these settings is with the H on the ground with the motors off. It may drift a little bit in any direction due to wind effects but it will be generally stable. There will be no "twist" which is known as "Yaw", no Roll, or side to side motion, and no Pitch, which is forward and aft motion, and altitude will be generally maintained because the throttle stick would be in the center position.

The weight and pitch of the propellers will not matter unless there were extreme differences because the FC is telling each motor what speed they need to run at to maintain equilibrium. It will have each motor run at a completely different speed to maintain that state. That's pretty much how it all works even with perfectly matched props. It's a very, very rare event when all the motors would be running at the same speed.

When the H is close to the ground, say about 3'-5' or so, there is quite a bit of turbulence under it do to the down wash effects of the propellers. This will make the H "dance" just a little bit. That amount of movement is relatively small, and it is totally unreasonable to expect things to function absolutely smoothly when close to the ground. That's why experienced operators leave the ground and gain altitude quickly to rise out of the turbulent effect of the propellers at or very near ground level.

Back to that experience thing. If when you are flying you put the H into a hover about 12'-15' off the ground and take your hands off the sticks, does the aircraft yaw? If not then it is well trimmed and changes only occur when you command them. If you have activated the "cruise control" function you might have accidentally pushed one of the forward/aft, right/left trim buttons on the D pad and now have the H slightly out of trim but those trim pads do not input yaw. Worse case would have the H moving a little to one side or the other or forward and back with your hands off the sticks with no yawing motion. So we can rule out the trim pads as a possible cause of unwanted yaw. Now, while in that 12'-15' hover, put your hands back on the sticks and move the H one direction or the other a little bit while maintaining that altitude. Stop the movement but keep your hands on the sticks. Does the H now yaw? If so you found the cause, which I strongly suspect will be the case. The cause is you because your left thumb is applying just a little bit of side pressure on the stick. It does not take much to initiate and maintain a slow yaw.

While descending to land the H will not yaw unless it is being told to do so. When close to the ground the H will move from side to side and forward/aft a little bit because of prop wash turbulence, but it does not yaw. Practice, practice, and more practice is what overcomes this problem. Learn your transmitter, and a big part of that is learning how sensitive the sticks are to command input, where "center" stick is for each one, a position where nothing is changing because the sticks were not deflected enough to initiate a change. That location is very, very small, which means when you desire small amounts of change you need to apply very small pressure on the sticks, and do so slowly and smoothly. One of the most difficult things to learn in RC is how to fly straight and level. With multirotors that changes a little bit to flying a straight line in any direction. Why? because people new to the activity do not realize then when they think they are commanding straight line flight they are also inputting a little side control on the sticks when trying for that straight line. So their straight line looks more like a curve. Find your centers and learn how to remain within them.

It's not too hard, is fun, and just takes a little time and practice. Oh, don't mix propeller types. That's never a good idea because it forces the FC and ESC's to work harder. A lot harder. The only time a mix of propellers is used is on coaxial configurations (upper and lower motors on a single arm) where the top and bottom props might be of different sizes. However, all the tops will be of one size and type while all of the bottom props will be the same in another size and type.

PatR,

Nice explanation of stick control and yaw, plus some.

However, to be clear... BrightonBlue is not experience changes in yaw, per his video.

Jeff
 
To a great extent, you're right. I do think he may holding a little bit of yaw at the left stick and with the mis-matched props and a minimum power setting for descent the the slight amount of yaw combined with different thrust factors has the aircraft operating just a little outside when the PID's were set up to handle. It could also be the props have enough differences to be confusing the FC and have it on the edge of "declaring" a motor out condition at the lowest thrust position, cycling thrust between booms rotationally. First thing to do is go to a single type of prop for all the motors.
 
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Yesterday I experienced a Corkscrew effect when landing and I realised I had mixed propellors on the Typhoon H.
Today, I flew the H with all blades the same make (Yuneec orignals) and the difference was noticeable. I landed half a dozen times and each one was perfect. I did not change any settings or do any re-calibrations at all on the Typhoon H or the ST16.
My conclusion is: Don't fly the Typhoon H with mixed blades.
 

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