4K (to HD) Video workflow...

[AeroJ]

This has been mentioned before in a thread, but that was a year a go, and it didn't get a solution, so I am doing a new thread about a long-standing problem in the hope you guys might be able to shed some light on a potential answer...

I am having a very frustrating problem at the moment. Previously, all my videos from the H have been shot at 1080 / 29.97 or 59.94 FPS, which plays back fine directly from the RAW files, and also fine in any edited and graded output. I always output to MP4, using H.264, and usually that is totally fine too.

Yesterday I thought I'd give 4K a go, so dutifully drove myself to some suitably picturesque landscape, saw the no drones signs (boo hoo ! ), moved 2 valleys down the hill to where there was a public footpath, and tried again !

When I got the footage home, copied it to hard disk and viewed the raw video files, the quality was very nice, and playback utterly smooth in Media Player Classic / Windows Media Player. All good so far...

Upon loading the files into DaVinci Resolve 15 Beta (by far my favourite editor) playback seemed largely Ok there too. So I did my grade, output a test file, and it's all gone horrible

Did a YT search, and found this, which is a perfect demonstration of the problem, but most annoyingly doesn't say how to fix it !

I have read the comments there, but the one solution suggested I am already doing. My project settings have 29.97 in all 3 places, and I am making sure to render out at that frame rate as well. I have tried at all ranges of bitrate, and the result is the same...

I think my PC should handle 4K video OK - It's quite old, but reasonably specc'd (AMD FX8350 / 4 GHz / 8 core / 32 GB RAM / NVidia 650TiBoost, Win7-64 bit) - well it does, as theoretically proved by the flawless playback of the raw files on MPC. I wouldn't mind, but I'm not even trying to get 4K video out ! And I KNOW that PC can deal with 1080, so I guess the problem is something DVC is doing...

Anyone else found a way to make this work in DVR ? I'd like to continue using that if I can, but very much open to other suggestions and workflows as well if we can't solve it here...

Thanks for reading, and sorry it was so long-winded !

J

 

[Jagerbomb52]

From what I was told on another forum was the free version of resolve is a hog as it doesn't contain the 4k decoder that the pro version does. Could this be part of the problem?

 

[AeroJ]

From what I was told on another forum was the free version of resolve is a hog as it doesn't contain the 4k decoder that the pro version does. Could this be part of the problem?

It certainly can't render 4K, but I have read that the latest 15 beta version (actually more recent than the commercial 14 version) will take it as an input, and that seems to work, in that it loads in and plays back OK.

I have just read a whole load of stuff that says DVC is a bit duff with H264, so I am just doing a transcoding test now to remove that from the equation. Will report back later with how that goes...

 

[AeroJ]

UPDATE: OK - just used Handbrake to transcode it down to 1080 / MP4 and then when loaded into Resolve the problem is gone both in real time playback, and rendered file.
I have to go to work now, but will try some other options when I get back, the most interesting of which might be to see if I can transcode to 4K MP4, and get that working...

 

[FlushVision]

This has been mentioned before in a thread, but that was a year a go, and it didn't get a solution, so I am doing a new thread about a long-standing problem in the hope you guys might be able to shed some light on a potential answer...

I am having a very frustrating problem at the moment. Previously, all my videos from the H have been shot at 1080 / 29.97 or 59.94 FPS, which plays back fine directly from the RAW files, and also fine in any edited and graded output. I always output to MP4, using H.264, and usually that is totally fine too.

Yesterday I thought I'd give 4K a go, so dutifully drove myself to some suitably picturesque landscape, saw the no drones signs (boo hoo ! ), moved 2 valleys down the hill to where there was a public footpath, and tried again !

When I got the footage home, copied it to hard disk and viewed the raw video files, the quality was very nice, and playback utterly smooth in Media Player Classic / Windows Media Player. All good so far...

Upon loading the files into DaVinci Resolve 15 Beta (by far my favourite editor) playback seemed largely Ok there too. So I did my grade, output a test file, and it's all gone horrible

Did a YT search, and found this, which is a perfect demonstration of the problem, but most annoyingly doesn't say how to fix it !

I have read the comments there, but the one solution suggested I am already doing. My project settings have 29.97 in all 3 places, and I am making sure to render out at that frame rate as well. I have tried at all ranges of bitrate, and the result is the same...

I think my PC should handle 4K video OK - It's quite old, but reasonably specc'd (AMD FX8350 / 4 GHz / 8 core / 32 GB RAM / NVidia 650TiBoost, Win7-64 bit) - well it does, as theoretically proved by the flawless playback of the raw files on MPC. I wouldn't mind, but I'm not even trying to get 4K video out ! And I KNOW that PC can deal with 1080, so I guess the problem is something DVC is doing...

Anyone else found a way to make this work in DVR ? I'd like to continue using that if I can, but very much open to other suggestions and workflows as well if we can't solve it here...

Thanks for reading, and sorry it was so long-winded !

J

I now have a beast of a computer that should be able to handle almost anything thrown at it. It is certainly 4K capable...by a long shot. I got it just over a fortnight ago and once I'd got it set up I shoved resolve on it and rendered a short 4K panning video out of it. The results were the same as the video you've posted.

I used to get the same when using my less powerful laptop and I put the problem to that thing not having the guts to run resolve properly so that was one of the reasons I stopped using resolve opting to use Filmora instead (another reason was that I found resolve a bit too complicated for my tastes) but when I got this new computer I thought i'd try resolve again...but the same problem. Sooo, I'd say it ain't your computer...it's an issue with resolve, the free version at any rate.

 

[Ty Pilot]

My favorite editing software is by far the Adobe suite; Premiere, After Effects and so on but the price has gone through the roof. When my current version (CS4) got to the point that it would no longer work with the new and larger video formats I hobbled together a solution that involved using an external converter to put them in a format to use with Premiere, but the results were so so, and the endless file duplication and time added to the workflow, and took away some of the enjoyment of producing a video. I wanted a single in and out point for all of my video from all of my cameras. I looked at all the different types out there and settled on Power Director Ultimate 16.

It does not have even a fraction of the capabilities of Adobe in terms of animation, titling and so fourth but it does work with every kind of footage I throw at it and; most importantly, it lets me render out at a file size that makes the final viewing quality on line as good as I ever got (and better) doing it the old way. Of all of the money I have spent on camera's, gear, drones, software and everything else - that was one of the wisest 70.00 bucks I ever spent. And in a year or three if I need to buy again when it struggles with whatever new file types are coming, I'll do it again.

 

[jcommstudios]

If you want to encode from 4K to 1080p to whatever editing platform you like I have used Brorsoft for the last couple of years. It allows you to encode to any codec you want at the original bit-rate. I am still using Premiere 5.5 as I don't want a monthly subscription fee. I use the editing mode: Canon XF MPEG2 1080i/p in the progressive mode. Premiere on a PC seems to prefer high level mpeg2 rather than .mov or h264. The 4K compressed to mpeg2 is easy to color grade and looks great! I use this for broadcast projects as well as web. Just different bit-rate settings for the two on output. TV spots are output as interlaced with a BR between 50 & 100. Web stuff I usually do at BR 20 2 pass.

Edit settings are
Timebase: 29.97fps
Video Settings
Frame size: 1920h 1080v (1.0000)
Frame rate: 29.97 frames/second
Pixel Aspect Ratio: Square Pixels (1.0)
Fields: No Fields (Progressive Scan)

Audio Settings
Sample rate: 48000 samples/second
Hope this helps!

 

[cbphoto2006]

UPDATE: OK - just used Handbrake to transcode it down to 1080 / MP4 and then when loaded into Resolve the problem is gone both in real time playback, and rendered file.
I have to go to work now, but will try some other options when I get back, the most interesting of which might be to see if I can transcode to 4K MP4, and get that working...

I also have the same issues, I use Handbrake to transcode to 1080p and edit from there and it works a dream. I'm trying to get a solution that allows me to edit in 4K so I can zoom in a decent amount and then most if not all of my projects are output to 1080p.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone can transcode from the cg03+ 4K files to other 4K format and still get the same smooth video.

Chris

 

[cbphoto2006]

I also have the same issues, I use Handbrake to transcode to 1080p and edit from there and it works a dream. I'm trying to get a solution that allows me to edit in 4K so I can zoom in a decent amount and then most if not all of my projects are output to 1080p.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone can transcode from the cg03+ 4K files to other 4K format and still get the same smooth video.

Chris

Sorry guys I should have said I'm currently using Vegas Movie Studio 14 (used to be Sony Vegas Movie Studio until v13 now by MAGIX) inexpensive and works a real treat and you don't need a NASA spec super computer to run it [emoji16][emoji106]

 

[AeroJ]

Sorry guys I should have said I'm currently using Vegas Movie Studio 14 (used to be Sony Vegas Movie Studio until v13 now by MAGIX) inexpensive and works a real treat and you don't need a NASA spec super computer to run it [emoji16][emoji106]

Interesting. I have version 12 of that, which isn't quite as up to the job as 14 by the sounds of it I did a render test in VMS12, and got a different sort of judder in the output, but still no go

I also did manage to get a 4K mp4 out of Handbrake, and that was looking good until I did a grade in DVC, at which point it remained perfectly smooth, but now there is another problem where 1 frame a second goes dimmer than the rest, so you end up with weird subtle flashes in the footage that make it equally unusable !

The testing continues ! Will post again if anything good happens...

 

[cbphoto2006]

Interesting. I have version 12 of that, which isn't quite as up to the job as 14 by the sounds of it I did a render test in VMS12, and got a different sort of judder in the output, but still no go

I also did manage to get a 4K mp4 out of Handbrake, and that was looking good until I did a grade in DVC, at which point it remained perfectly smooth, but now there is another problem where 1 frame a second goes dimmer than the rest, so you end up with weird subtle flashes in the footage that make it equally unusable !

The testing continues ! Will post again if anything good happens...

V14 and the newer v15 seem to do a really fab job and are quite intuitive to use. As I have no 4k display device I am quite happy to end up with perfect 1080p out for clients, YouTube my website etc.

What 4k settings are you using in handbrake, would be good for all to share that. I can then see if a render in Vegas Studio 14 can give good out put.

Cheers
Chris

 

[AeroJ]

What 4k settings are you using in handbrake, would be good for all to share that. I can then see if a render in Vegas Studio 14 can give good out put.

I used these settings initially, which certainly produce smooth 4K mp4 output, but looking at the file sizes, the original one off the camera was 1.65 GB, and the mp4 I output was 5.45 GB, so I guess quality was set too high. But for the purposes of this experiment, where I didn't want any low quality settings to compromise anything about the transcode, it does work.



However, remember the weird little flashes I mentioned before ? Well - turns out they are in the source footage as well, and I just hadn't noticed them before - they are quite subtle except in a few places where they become more prominent. And yet it is not present all the time. I am beginning to think it is related to the angle of the camera to the sun, but not sure about this as I have never seen this particular kind of artefact when recording at 1080. If it is an artefact from the camera at 4k, then I guess a lot of H owners might already have noticed it in their own footage ?

If I can grade and upload a sample from my mp4 through DVR I'll upload it, see if the flashes remain, and if so will link it here so everyone can see what I'm talking about...

 

[cbphoto2006]

I used these settings initially, which certainly produce smooth 4K mp4 output, but looking at the file sizes, the original one off the camera was 1.65 GB, and the mp4 I output was 5.45 GB, so I guess quality was set too high. But for the purposes of this experiment, where I didn't want any low quality settings to compromise anything about the transcode, it does work.

View attachment 11013 View attachment 11014

However, remember the weird little flashes I mentioned before ? Well - turns out they are in the source footage as well, and I just hadn't noticed them before - they are quite subtle except in a few places where they become more prominent. And yet it is not present all the time. I am beginning to think it is related to the angle of the camera to the sun, but not sure about this as I have never seen this particular kind of artefact when recording at 1080. If it is an artefact from the camera at 4k, then I guess a lot of H owners might already have noticed it in their own footage ?

If I can grade and upload a sample from my mp4 through DVR I'll upload it, see if the flashes remain, and if so will link it here so everyone can see what I'm talking about...

I had noticed similar things when I hadn't set the exposure to manual, I don't know if that applies to your video?

 

[AeroJ]

I had noticed similar things when I hadn't set the exposure to manual, I don't know if that applies to your video?

It's a good thought, but no, it's not those flashes, which are white and quite distinctive - I am always in manual mode, so it's not that here My flashes almost look like a compression thing where things go ever so slightly blurry for 1 frame every second.

 

[AeroJ]

For anyone interested, here is the first 3 minutes of a test flight (unedited other than transcoding to mp4, grade and reduction to 1080 in DVR).
Where the panning still isn't smooth, that is now just the result of the wind and the (rather fast in places) movement of the craft, and not of any video stuttering, so I'm calling that solved for now, but will make an edit of all the other day's 4K flights just to make sure the workflow is consistent and reliable. What I am fairly sure about is that this footage looks better than it would had I just shot it at 1080. None of the normal fuzzy trees I get sometimes...

 

[jcommstudios]

For anyone interested, here is the first 3 minutes of a test flight (unedited other than transcoding to mp4, grade and reduction to 1080 in DVR).
Where the panning still isn't smooth, that is now just the result of the wind and the (rather fast in places) movement of the craft, and not of any video stuttering, so I'm calling that solved for now, but will make an edit of all the other day's 4K flights just to make sure the workflow is consistent and reliable. What I am fairly sure about is that this footage looks better than it would had I just shot it at 1080. None of the normal fuzzy trees I get sometimes...

Great looking sky in the first portion! Pretty sweet for a 1/2.5 inch sensor. Good job! 4k encoded to 1080 is the way to go. I shoot a Sony 4K rig with a 1 inch sensor for my ground scenes and encode to 1080 and it always looks way better than shooting 1080. Very nice job!

 

[FlushVision]

For anyone interested, here is the first 3 minutes of a test flight (unedited other than transcoding to mp4, grade and reduction to 1080 in DVR).
Where the panning still isn't smooth, that is now just the result of the wind and the (rather fast in places) movement of the craft, and not of any video stuttering, so I'm calling that solved for now, but will make an edit of all the other day's 4K flights just to make sure the workflow is consistent and reliable. What I am fairly sure about is that this footage looks better than it would had I just shot it at 1080. None of the normal fuzzy trees I get sometimes...

Nice and smooth footage. So the solution is to encode the footage to 1080 and work with that in resolve. OK. I'll try it when I get a bit of time. I still have Resolve installed on my new computer since I was too lazy to un-install it last week.

 

[cbphoto2006]

Nice and smooth footage. So the solution is to encode the footage to 1080 and work with that in resolve. OK. I'll try it when I get a bit of time. I still have Resolve installed on my new computer since I was too lazy to un-install it last week.

The newest version of handbrake does this great.

 

[AeroJ]

Nice and smooth footage. So the solution is to encode the footage to 1080 and work with that in resolve...

Yes, but you can transcode it to 4K mp4 using that method as well, and then do the reduction to 1080 in DVR, which is arguably better than downsampling beforehand because a) you have visual control over any sharpening, and b)now you can zoom into footage (or not) which makes for a more flexible edit.

 

[FlushVision]

Yes, but you can transcode it to 4K mp4 using that method as well, and then do the reduction to 1080 in DVR, which is arguably better than downsampling beforehand because a) you have visual control over any sharpening, and b)now you can zoom into footage (or not) which makes for a more flexible edit.

Good to know.
I'm currently working on getting good at a Dolly Zoom effect using some previously shot 4K footage and using Filmora to get the effect. If I could use Resolve to do it, it would be great but I know that if I use 4K in Resolve the renders in 1080 show stuttering, and more so if rendered to 4K. Reducing to 1080 before attacking it with Resolve, from what we have learned this last day or so, should do the trick.