Just curious

[AllJoy Drone Guy]

Regardless of how much land you own, you don't own the airspace above it. Although a "hard value" has never been established a Supreme Court ruling back in 1946 or so, which is the latest case to determine airspace ownership, put private airspace ownership at a height the property owner can effectively use. For the purposes of that particular case that height was about 86' AGL. For all intents and purposes, the tallest object on your property is the maximum extent of your private airspace ownership.

The FAR's do place altitude limits on most manned aviation activities based on population congestion, with some exceptions for helicopter operations. In low congestion areas the altitude floor is 500'. For congested areas it's 1,000'. However, in areas sparsely occupied by humans manned aviation can fly as low as they want, as long as they can make a safe landing in the event a power unit fails. So if your property is out in the middle of the boondocks with nobody but you and your structures around they can fly pretty darn low as long as they don't touch the ground and remain at least 500' separation from you and your buildings. Your cows, horses, or sheep aren't covered by that as the regs specifically reference persons or structures but if the flight activities caused you to suffer a loss of livestock or business revenue you might recover those losses in a civil court.

Where collision avoidance between drones and manned aircraft is concerned, the FAA places the onus of "see and avoid", "safe separation of aircraft" 100% on drone operators. Full scale is not responsible for seeing and avoiding drones. They are responsible for assuring the safe outcome of a flight but not for seeing and avoiding drones. So in the U.S. ANY collision between a manned aircraft and a drone, regardless of location or altitude, will be the fault of the drone operator. About the only way to reduce our liability in this regard would be to have a NOTAM generated and published that describes our location, altitudes, and times of flight to provide full scale operators a means of determining where drone operations are being conducted in order to avoid them. Such is likely mentioned in RPR’s mitigation factors for his waiver. Even then, we are responsible for providing a means to maintain a watch of the airspace for manned aircraft and takes the steps necessary to assure safe aircraft separation.

I'll try to answer your original question, which was a very good one, in another post.

Thanks PatR, great reply. I didn't intend for the post to become so serious. My original question was just something I was curious about.

 

[Fred Garvin]

Thanks PatR, great reply. I didn't intend for the post to become so serious. My original question was just something I was curious about.

It’s always good to have the discussion. It can be confusing and not everyone knows what is correct. Hopefully someone will “search” on it in the future and come across this thread. Another valuable topic added to the knowledge base.

 

[AH-1G]

Flying is very serious and It's good to be curious about these topics.
This will make you a better pilot especially if you put it into practice.

 

[PatR]

. And, to everyone on the thread, never at anytime was my question due to the need or want to fly near an airport. I would never do that.

Never thought for a moment there was an intent to fly at or near an airport. You brought up a very good question and also provided a reason to dispel a common misconception relative to who owns the airspace above our owned property. Both provided an excellent reason and opportunity to expand on them.

We could continue to beat on the airport traffic pattern horse but aside from displaying some traffic pattern images it prolly would serve little purpose. Anyone flying within a couple miles of an airport should keep things as low as possible. If it was me that ceiling would be 200' or less, preferably less, but my head would still be on a swivel. We cannot depend on manned pilots to follow all the rules all of the time and if the airport is an uncontrolled or private field we can't depend on pilots to obey the rules at all. People are people and when nobody is watching they can de some pretty strange things, a frequent occurrance at uncontrolled fields..

 

[PatR]

The book requires people to read. For some that's more discipline than they possess. Speeds referenced in the first image pertain to a C-182.

 

[AH-1G]

I'm sorry but I don't believe that. I own a significant amount of acreage, all forest. There is no reason for a pilot of any kind (unless he is crashing) to be that low over my property. I think he would have some serious questions to answer.

You may own a section of land or just a couple of acres, if I'm flying around site seeing in a non ATC area, I can buzz that persons property at tree top level without violating any FAA rules. (except for restricted airspace out side of ATC area's)
I could and am allowed to hover over your house without permission in a helicopter, Is it cool, no!
I could be watching someone sunbath in a helicopter and be legal, but a drone pilot would get ripped!

 

[DoomMeister]

Normal minimal CG ( climb gradient ) is 200 feet/nautical mile ( 1.15 statute mi). So to get to 500 ft to leave a normal vertical separation you get 2.5*1.15= 2.88 mi (let’s call it 3 miles) from the ends of the runway.

 

[Mrgs1]

You may not own the Airspace above but you have some rights.
Airspace
You also own, and have rights in the airspace above your property; however, these rights are limited. There are two types of airspace – the lower and upper stratums.
The lower stratum
This is the airspace immediately above/around the land. Interference with this air space would affect the landowner’s reasonable enjoyment of the land and the structures upon it. You can prevent people from interfering with or intruding on this airspace. For instance, projecting eaves or advertising signs, and tower cranes being used for construction work on neighbouring land but which swing across your airspace.
The higher stratum
This is the airspace which exists above the height which is reasonably acceptable and necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of the land by its owner – around 500 to 1000 feet above roof space level (Section 76 Civil Aviation Act 1982). Landowners have no greater rights to this airspace than any other member of the public.

 

[AH-1G]

Here is a good rock--n-rolling video of NOE, all legal! Been there done that many times, both in rotor and fixed wing.?
NOE starts 1:24 minutes into video

 

[Russell Smith]

Sorry, but you didn't really answer my question. If that is the case, then tell me this. I live just outside five miles from an uncontrolled airport, due south of a departure/approach. If that pilot maintains 50' after takeoff and flies over my property then strikes my hex, isn't he in some serious trouble? Because I will have done absolutely nothing wrong.

do what a lot of us do in regards to airports. you can call the airport ATC or the responsible person and ask for clearance. they'll either say go for it

 

[Russell Smith]

do what a lot of us do in regards to airports. you can call the airport ATC or the responsible person and ask for clearance. they'll either say go for it

and ask for clearance. they'll either say go for it or give you some time frames.

 

[Phaedrus]

and ask for clearance. they'll either say go for it or give you some time frames.

Actually, the FAA has instructed local ATC to never actually grant "permission". When you contact ATC the most they can do is let you know they would not like you to fly. If you fly, and cause an issue, then this goes against you. So they can say "Don't fly, but they can't give you permission to fly. FAA doublespeak at its finest! And outside the 5-mile area they really don't want to be bothered.

The person talking about this stated it was an uncontrolled airport, so none of that even applies since there is not tower to talk to.

 

[Tiffin 2018]

This will start you off learning about airport traffic patterns, arrival and departure procedures, as several other good to know topics when you are near airports of any type to help you understand and avoid manned traffic.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/airplane_flying_handbook.pdf

I think the prudent and obvious policy would be to stay as far away from any airports regardless ATC to private fields. There’s a good reason why we don’t have the ROW and the discussion has addressed it in detail. I suggest that anyone unsure should read this discussion. BTW I hope I didn’t come off sounding rude. It’s just my policy. The one thing that you have to account for is that not all GA pilots will fly by the rules. Two other aircraft and I were attempting to enter the pattern at a municipal airport once and two pilots cut across the runway in front of us and entered the pattern in front of us. We had to take evasive action. We had announced our position but they still continued on. We heard an acknowledgment so we know we were heard. There’s always the unexpected.

 

[Phaedrus]

Wandering off topic a bit, but this is my favorite NOE clip. Cool watching how they roll inverted to pull over a hill top rather than push over. Keeps them closer to the ground. Because who doesn't want to be inverted at treetop level, right!?

 

[AH-1G]

I've attended I/ITESEC several times here in Orlando, you're able to fly several flight simulators.
I had the fortune of flying the F18, and other aircrafts, and as usual I flew NOE just as you see the pilot flying above. However it would be me more exciting in real life.
What I did learn you can't use rudders when flying at X speed plus.
They had the V-22 Osprey simulator there, but officers were first before civilians could fly.

2019 I/ITSEC

exhibits.iitsec.org

 

[Phaedrus]

Very cool. I got some time in a B737 simulator. That was some fun.

 

[PatR]

You ever ride in a V-22? Cargo area is similar in size to a CH-47 but unlike a helicopter where they always seem to be flying nose low the 22 always seems to be nose high. We had a squadron of them at al Asad. A much faster ride than any other rotary wing when you needed to get from here to there, and they didn’t need to fly NOE to deter ground fire.

Never quite trusted one like I did a -53 though.

 

[PatR]

Just a head’s up. We might want to be nice to the OP. He never said he wanted to do unsafe and silly stuff, he just inquired to broaden his knowledge base. A very good practice.

How we address inquiries, just as how inquiries are formatted, can make the difference between gaining a new, long term member or a one or two time visitor. It’s on us to read between the lines after the second post to determine where they are trying to go. First posts can be timid or aggressive as they aren’t in tune with the other members yet, and may not be used to communication in web forums.

 

[AH-1G]

53 is one tough looking bird, never flown in one.
Only been in a 47 once.

 

[RatBob]

(FAR) Part 91.119

There are minimums relative to location and situation