Video from the C23 and H Plus

[Rubik]

Got it, I think. So I learned this week from this thread: ISO is applied to the captured image after the exposure is actually recorded by the C23 sensor and hardware. I did not know this or did not acknowledge this. It is like 'really, that is so obtuse'.

If this is correct then :

ISO is like a blanket calculation applied evenly across the captured 'raw' image : highlights, shadow, mid-tones.

This is a huge fundamental difference to film in that you expose film to a combination of time and lens aperture in respect to the ISO which the photographer calculates via a light meter (or the camera does for you) prior to exposure. In the C23 the 'exposure' is purely the time, 1/30, 1/60, 1/1000, as the lens is aperture is fixed. The relation to ISO is applied after the image is captured. Fundamentally the ISO manipulation post sensor capture can only degrade the 'raw' image by further manipulation if the image was properly exposed. Thus for the C23 taking an exposure at 1/60 second as the 'raw' image, then applying an 800 ISO manipulation over it produces the 'Original' image with an 8x highlight enhancement (100 ISO being lowest, to 200-400-800). If the exposure was perfect at 1/60th second, then the 800 ISO software enhancement will blow all the highlights and the shadows will be grey. If the 1/60th second was 8x underexposed relative to the applied ISO , then the manipulated raw captured image will produce the 'Original' image that will have contained the highlights to shadows, but detail will be missing. This seems to be apparent in my sunrise footage.

You can never get back captured detail that the ISO blanket has manipulated out of the raw image.

I believe this is the approach for the C23 and other fixed aperture cameras (thankyou @Rubik , @Ty Pilot and others) with my reasoning applied:

Capture the 'raw' image based on the time requirements : 1/30, 1/60, 1/500, what ever is required.
Set the system to the lowest ISO such as 100 for the C23. THIS WILL AVOID UNWANTED ISO MANIPULATION APPLIED POST IMAGE CAPTURE.
Use ND filters to actually adjust the light coming into the C23 sensor so it matches the 100 ISO your light meter grey card reading specifies for the selected exposure time of 1/30, 1/60, 1/500, etc.
This will eliminate the ISO software manipulation to the captured raw image.
The ND filters will provide the highlight to shadow ratio you desire for a proper exposure.
This will provide the least manipulated image the C23 can produce.

You still need to capture something worthwhile.

Some video cameras use the term "gain" instead of ISO. That's a bit more accurate description of what's happening.

 

[YuKay]

Potentially interesting video - with downloadable footage. Possibly from Poland but I can't understand any of it:

 

[YuKay]

Unpacking and test video (1080p) in French from the well-manicured Hubert Aile. Some footage and nice stills in the final third and Monsieur Aile declares it the best drone camera he has ever seen (and he has seen plenty). However, his footage of the corn field does succumb to antialiasing and smearing in places. Downloadable footage at 4k/50.

 

[rdonson]

@Windluv Close but.....

There is a triangle for photography and videography that is helpful.

ISO, Aperture and Shutter Speed

ISO relates to the sensitivity of the sensor to light. The higher the ISO, the greater the sensitivity. Higher sensitivity adds noise thanks to physics.

Aperture is an opening in the lens that can affect both the amount of light going to the sensor and depth of field. With the H and H+ there is no control of aperture. It is fixed at f2.8. Aperture is actually a ratio of the opening to the focal length of the lens.

Shutter speed is the easiest to understand. You generally use it to stop motion in photography but in video we generally set it to twice the fps we’re recording at. Shutter speed will also affect the amount of light getting to the sensor.

With no control over aperture with our cameras we rely on ND (neutral density) filters to adjust the amount of light reaching the sensor. Good ND filters should be neutral and add no color cast to the photo or video.

You will also encounter EV or exposure value. This is really a simple formula which relates to ISO, aperture and shutter speed. A + value for EV adjusts the triangle to provide more light to the sensor. A - value for EV reduces the light to the sensor. Since we have a fixed aperture EV can only adjust ISO and shutter speed. When we manually take control of the camera settings and set ISO and shutter speed EV will adjust one of those depending on the priority of the camera.

Hope this helps.

 

[NorWiscPilot]

Please - someone talk me off the ledge after reading “ISO is applied post capture”!!! RD, I think you did, but I still felt the need to publicly shudder at the thought of years of accepted understanding being rendered totally wrong!

To summarize and elaborate on what RD just said, and zero in on the neutral density filter discussion...

ND filters are useful when the photographer wants a specific shutter speed and aperture, has already cranked the ISO as low as possible, yet still has too much light for the desired capture.

One of the best examples in still photography is the techniques used to capture “motion” in running water (e.g. rivers, waterfalls, et al). One might want a 1/15s or lower shutter speed, with a moderate aperture (f8 - f11) but still might find the capture overexposed. Knock down the light with ND filters and “beauteous”!

In our Typhoon world, we can’t close the aperture, as RD stated. We have our “sweet spot” desired shutter speed. We reduce the sensitivity of the sensor as much as possible. What’s left? Reduce the light even further with ND filters.

And sometimes, we just have to take what’s available or wait for the natural diffusers... clouds!

Jeff

 

[rdonson]

Increasing ISO is not post capture AFAIK. Every camera I’ve come across, still or video, raising ISO is a function of turning up the “gain” on the sensor. That why you can see the noise at high ISO on the ST-16 screen.

We can dive deeper into ISO invariance and other sensor topics but I’m afraid we’d put most readers to sleep doing that.

 

[Fan Tho Mass]

Hello @ all,

in reference to my comparison video:

The different settings are made as follows:
CGO3 + would have been underexposed at 1/2000 exposure time
E90 and C23 would have been overexposed at 1/1600 exposure time

This is also logical, because the larger lens / sensor gets more light into it.
The color profiles should actually be the same, with the C23 gabs a bug, which prevented that in the video mode, the camera settings changed, I have the first too late. noticed at home on the PC.

The E90 has no "Gorgeous" color profile, which comes "Vivid" the next (Panasonic Style) in the CGO3 + has worked, in the C23 was unfortunately reset to "original"
Since the comparison is very complex, I did not want to do it again.
In addition, I was a little unlucky that the C23 test clouds have partially hidden the sun, which also distorts the result.

In general, I edit all the original shots on the PC, which I have also stated in the video.
One can only make one's own picture of the qualities of the cameras by doing something like this yourself and forming one's own opinion.

greeting
Fan Tho Mass

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
german translat:

Hallo @all,

im Bezug auf mein Vergleichsvideo:

Die Verschiedenen einstellungen kommen Wie folgt zustande:
CGO3 + wäre bei Einer Belichtungszeit von 1/2000 unterbelichtet gewesen
E90 und C23 wäre bei Einer Belichtungszeit von 1/1600 überbelichtet gewesen

Das ist auch logisch, denn Durch die Größere Linse / Sensor wird mehr Licht hinein.
Die Farbprofile sollten eigentlich gleich sein, bei der C23 gabs einen Bug, der verhinderte, dass man im Videomodus die Kameraeinstellungen änderte, ich habe das erste zu spät. zuhause am PC bemerkt.

Die E90 hat kein "Gorgeous" Farbprofil, dem kommt "Vivid" am nächsten (Panasonic Style) bei der CGO3+ hat das funktioniert, bei der C23 wurde leider wieder auf "Original" zurückgestellt"
Da der Vergleich sehr Aufwendig ist, wollte ich das nicht noch einmal durchführen.
Außerdem hatte ich ein wenig Pech, dass beim C23 Test Wolken die zum Teil Sonne verdeckt haben, was das Ergebnis auch verfälscht.

Generell bearbeite ich alle Orginalaufnahmen am PC nach, das habe ich auch im Video angegeben.
Ein eigenes Bild von den Qualitäten der Kameras kann man sich nur machen, indem man soetwas selbst durchführt und sich seine eigene Meinung bildet.

Gruß
Fan Tho Mass

 

[Rubik]

The main reason for setting shutter speed at twice the frame rate: this creates a satisfying motion blur for moving scenes, something we expect to see. Using a higher shutter speed can create an undesirable staccato effect to the scene, particularly at lower frame rates (24-30 fps). Now, at 60 fps, this rule-of-thumb may not be necessary or desirable. Also, if you are planning to pull stills from your 4K video, the higher shutter speed will help ensure sharply focused images. The cost of this appears to be the distracting shimmering effect of textures like gravel and grass. It's always a trade off, isn't it.

 

[NorWiscPilot]

Increasing ISO is not post capture AFAIK. Every camera I’ve come across, still or video, raising ISO is a function of turning up the “gain” on the sensor. That why you can see the noise at high ISO on the ST-16 screen.

We can dive deeper into ISO invariance and other sensor topics but I’m afraid we’d put most readers to sleep doing that.

RD,

Exactly my point... ISO=sensor/film sensitivity.

No need to expand further. I was simply debunking the statement made previously in this thread claiming an [incorrect] understanding.

Jeff

 

[rdonson]

RD,

Exactly my point... ISO=sensor/film sensitivity.

No need to expand further. I was simply debunking the statement made previously in this thread claiming an [incorrect] understanding.

Jeff

Yes, digital ISO is a rough analogy to film sensitivity and one that people easily grasp.

 

[Windluv]

Thank you @rdonson . Very precise explanations and appreciated. I read in one of the posts in the Tyhoon H Plus Discussion or Help the last week or so that the ISO was applied post capture, which I also scratched my head at. That is why I stated what I said; otherwise I would not have believed that either @NorWiscPilot .

 

[NorWiscPilot]

Thank you @rdonson . Very precise explanations and appreciated. I read in one of the posts in the Tyhoon H Plus Discussion or Help the last week or so that the ISO was applied post capture, which I also scratched my head at. That is why I stated what I said; otherwise I would not have believed that either @NorWiscPilot .

Windluv,

Thank you for clarifying!

It helps when discussions come full circle and gain closure on points having a bit of disagreement, confusion, or plain incorrect.

Nice to know i was not the only one going “huh?”

[emoji41]

 

[PatR]

It certainly can. I just recently changed to a USB 3 reader and the transfer rate is way better.

Way better indeed, and slow speed of an old computer can impact that as well.

 

[PatR]

Increasing ISO is not post capture AFAIK. Every camera I’ve come across, still or video, raising ISO is a function of turning up the “gain” on the sensor. That why you can see the noise at high ISO on the ST-16 screen.

We can dive deeper into ISO invariance and other sensor topics but I’m afraid we’d put most readers to sleep doing that.

Really getting in the weeds would be comparing the differences between film and digital cameras where ISO is concerned. Those artifacts also occur in film cameras using high ISO. Where digital cameras is concerned, ISO is a term carried over from film to ease translation and not accurate in description for digital.

 

[thoneter]

So on the same vein. If as a 107 i take 360 shots for a realtor to look at and see if they want them for their site. Can i fly under hobby until i have them decide? My desire is to sell them but my intent is for fun.

 

[PatR]

You need to talk with an aviation attorney. My interpretation would make all the photos commercial as they were reviewed to determine which were best for use for a particular commercial application. Commercial intent would have been present and demonstrated.

 

[Eagle's Eye Video]

The main reason for setting shutter speed at twice the frame rate: this creates a satisfying motion blur for moving scenes, something we expect to see. Using a higher shutter speed can create an undesirable staccato effect to the scene, particularly at lower frame rates (24-30 fps). Now, at 60 fps, this rule-of-thumb may not be necessary or desirable. Also, if you are planning to pull stills from your 4K video, the higher shutter speed will help ensure sharply focused images. The cost of this appears to be the distracting shimmering effect of textures like gravel and grass. It's always a trade off, isn't it.

It should be pointed out that, unlike the H, anyone with a Plus who is doing captures from 4K is going to have a significantly lower resolution image to work with... as opposed to actually taking the time to switch to a photo mode and utilize the full 20 MP resolution the C23 camera is capable of. A 4K capture is only about 9 MP.

 

[rdonson]

Really getting in the weeds would be comparing the differences between film and digital cameras where ISO is concerned. Those artifacts also occur in film cameras using high ISO. Where digital cameras is concerned, ISO is a term carried over from film to ease translation and not accurate in description for digital.

Not only that but there is more than one standard for digital ISO (REI and SOS). Many camera makers use a standard for ISO that might make you think you really don’t need light for a photo because you can go up to 100,000 ISO on their cameras.

 

[Rubik]

It should be pointed out that, unlike the H, anyone with a Plus who is doing captures from 4K is going to have a significantly lower resolution image to work with... as opposed to actually taking the time to switch to a photo mode and utilize the full 20 MP resolution the C23 camera is capable of. A 4K capture is only about 9 MP.

Yes, good point.
Does the Plus loose the white balance Lock when switching between video and photo like in the TH?

 

[Merhlin]

Thank you kindly. Actually I'm not a "train spotter" per se but simply looking for subjects or environments to film in a Yuneec way, so -to-speak. My previous drone experience was for a year (on and off because of issues) with at Parrot Bebop2, which gets decent video in good light but isn't 4K quality. So, compared to what I was used to (photo/video) even the poor 4k seems an improvement. I love the photo quality so far. I'm nowhere near the expert on the technical details that you are. I agree that for that amount of money, the camera should be superb.

I am wondering if the fact that I had it set on the "gorgeous" setting might have created some of the issues so my next vids are going to be in the "normal" setting. Some preliminary examination of that setting indicates it may have reduced some of the issues in the railroad video. I can always edit the video for detail, saturation, exposure, etc. in my Adobe Lightroom before editing it in PD.

Thanks again.

I am sharing this (new TH+) for critique of the camera and settings, not the subject or editing. I'm the guy that shared the Railroad Crossing video recently that had some "issues." Now, granted, this video is not filmed in the same location (no endless gravel or railroad tracks ) so it may not be entirely fair to compare this with that one. But here you go. It's not "dialed-in" with specific manual settings. See the description under the video on YouTube. Also this is unlisted and I'm only interested in sharing it here. As usual I'm open to suggestions as to what I can do to improve my video. Thanks.