Data collection - helpful, avoided, blocked, desired??

Dougcjohn · Oct 7, 2018

We've all had the Drone discussions over the years on data collection, Chinese Spies, Govt - Big Brother and avoid, Avoid, AVOID.
Which has been one reason many have chosen Yuneec over other brands.

One of my favorite Posters on this site that invokes thoughts, friendly debates, educator of RC aviation, and Drone Historian stimulated this discussion of data collection.

As many, I've expressed in past posts that I don't participate in Social Media circles... 1) Have no Interest, 2) My life isn't that interesting to need to know about my cat, grass or bicycle rides! 3) If someone does want to know, there's a problem in my opinion. Maybe a little ex-Army rubbed off and remained, or just my conservative private viewpoints of life.
There are various formats and types of data collection I'm against. Then again, some types I'm all for... Medical records shouldn't be maintained by one Hospital that I frequent, if I need medical attention while on vacation, I'm not receptive to the 1 hr to 1 day delay to obtain my medical history before being treated. That doesn't indicate I want my records propagated across all medical databases, but maybe a access card or a method to quickly access from a central records bank. Point is... my data should serve me as needed.

Back to our main joy... RC or Photography Drones.

With the increasing or inevitable increase in regulations, insurance requirements, and proof or defense of RC Flight and possible accidents. Data collection is evolving and becoming more important for the Owner / Pilot than Big Brother tracking our movements. With drone flight activity, the need to verify multiple points of data is becoming more of a requirement than personal self-interest data points. On the European side, the requirement to maintain logs or various data of projects is not optional... and it's minimal to what is being discussed by Govt and Insurance Companies. I think it can easily be predicted that not too far down the road the USA will have it's own set of data collection & reporting requirements. Not just flight path and flight performance stats, but also battery records, battery charge and condition, weather conditions & visibility, etc. To manually entry this data would become a burden, especially for the busy shop and to generate a constantly changing requirement of various reports would be hard to meet.... which might be the goal of various insurance companies to disqualify your liability or property claim.

We've all examined various log books; paper & software. Some meet your expectations, some lack fields you desire, and some have fields you wouldn't even consider collecting. The “content” isn't the main focus, it's the “entry time” to collect, measure and read the data points "prior" to flight mission, and the collection of data after the flight. Especially if you're flying an extended operations project: an Ag field grid that consumes 4-8 batteries, a construction site grid or a week long busy photo / cinema shoot. Then on the Hobbyist side, you've hung your Commercial Tags on the wall and you've pre-declared you're flying as a Hobbyist for a weekend; pre vs post is critical in legal assessment.

What method do we apply to log all the data points? 1) Ignore until required, 2) Manually key the points you feel meet “your” needs, 3) Blind fill… just fill the blanks, 4) Automation, minimal post edit work.

If Automation collection & distribution, how is the data collected? If collected, how is it stored or transmitted? If it’s stored locally, the process to retrieve from bird or radio is required. If uploaded, the RC Software to upload would need the End Point(s) and the location of the Sync Apps to supply the data to Log Software. If you used multiple models, or multiple identical models sharing batteries but different radios, how’s the data sync’ed across the models and radios.

Can it be done manually… Yep!
Would be time consuming, I’d wager most wouldn’t do it in a complete fashion. What if you guessed on Temp & Wind, had an accident and your guess was 10 degrees warmer and 15 mph slower wind. The Insurance company pulls the weather for the location from an external source and disputes your claim or manages to prove in Court you were at fault.
How many Pilot's track their battery detail? Number of cycles, start & end voltages, dates & flights. Your craft drops from the sky… was it error of Pilot, degraded LiPo, or new faulty battery?
Enter the Reports: Flights, battery usage, etc. Collecting data to report… more entertainment value!
Some of your data books might serve against you but would that be the books or the way activity was performed.

It’s common knowledge I’m an open platform collector, some may refer to it as traitor, I go with what meets my needs, if it has good potential, or it’s just plain cute or sexy. This provides the opportunity to monitor a lot of product development and the opportunity to be impressed with various ideas or features. I recently got turned down on a simple construction weekly progress grid because I wasn’t able to provide a degree of reports and logs the Construction Company’s Insurance required.

I decided I needed to be more motivated in data collection as this would become the norm vs the exception. In reading and evaluating various log / data software, I realized how quickly the environment was changing and data collection was becoming more sales & legal defense vs Govt requirements, but that too was clearly writing on the wall.

There are many, but the free versions were very limited and others just not satisfactory for my needs. Looked at Online products & App products. For my personal preference, I came across a product called DroneLogBook, free version has unlimited records, unlimited uploads, and extensive data fields and reports. It allows manual entry and automated entry. For my non-Yuneec birds, I was able to sync massive amount of data per flight in a few minutes. Flight stats Pre-Post, battery stats Pre-Post, each battery separately identified, weather stats, etc. The first time, requires editing by entering model names, serial numbers, Reg numbers, battery labels, etc. From that point on, future sync’s will use the additional information. What a pleasure to gain all the data without hours & hours of back loading old logs.

I’m rethinking the data collection, I can see value for my needs that greatly reduce manual entry.
Still not keen on wide open data collection & distribution, but I think that’s coming for all new Brands sooner than we believe would occur.

As a side closing comment: The military used to strongly block the use of DJI, not even allowed on a base that had MI personnel or sensitive material. They are still requiring no international uploads but they are beginning to use their technology. A unique version of a Mavic, extended battery and undisclosed camera & possible payload. Upload video streaming and able to be a GPS guidance if necessary. Ultra small package for the forward observer’s pack.

OK... chew it up guys! Discuss Pros & Cons

PatR · Oct 8, 2018

Data is a problem on many fronts, especially where the operator is concerned. However, I do believe we will eventually see logging requirements quite similar to what’s required if full scale, from maintenance through flight ops. The FAA has proven time and again that once they’ve adopted a format they don’t change from it, they only amend it to include new technology. Pilot, engine, and airframe logs haven’t been changed much in over 50 years.

OTOA, commercial drone operators should be paying close attention to how large corporate outfits have been structuring their domestic drone programs. Those structures are deeply involved with training, both initial and recurrent, safety, maintenance, incident reporting, process improvement, and airframe certification. These are the people advising the FAA on what will be needed to move forward and there’s no way their processes will be tossed for methods much simpler and less expensive.

PatR · Oct 9, 2018

DCJ,

If you haven’t noticed, I like stirring the pot to get people thinking beyond the obvious. With drones, what’s on the surface is often quite misleading. Getting them to delve deeper into a subject expands their understanding and causes them to continue researching subject matter that is continually expanding.

What people fly doesn’t matter as long as whatever it is fulfills their needs

Dougcjohn · Oct 9, 2018

PatR said:
DCJ,

If you haven’t noticed, I like stirring the pot to get people thinking beyond the obvious. With drones, what’s on the surface is often quite misleading. Getting them to delve deeper into a subject expands their understanding and causes them to continue researching subject matter that is continually expanding.

What people fly doesn’t matter as long as whatever it is fulfills their needs

Pat, not noticing would be a challenge of ignorance; oh yes, I’ve noticed a long time back, and you’ve probably noticed I rather enjoy the depth the trail takes... if too calm, I’ll give it a stir for interests... no byte, might toss a chip! I know I can always count on at least one opinionated ole’ grump to challenge... your knowledge is broad on UAV scope making it a productive discussion.

I can appreciate your expression above, first thought was a Trojan Horse... I’ve also easily deduced a strong distaste for DJI more than your disgruntled view of Yuneec’s lack luster attitude to get in the fight. Share several views and differ on a few, one possibly is the innovations pushed by DJI... which I don’t see as superiority, but market leading with hopes other manufactures would get in the game. Understandably, it may be too late unless there’s a market blowing product in a dark lab. While everyone watched, DJI has not only come from behind, they’ve become a large margin market leader, that extended it’s realm into politics, multiple governments, finance and owning most component source providers in the homeland, practically forcing everyone else to wait and fight over scrapes.

Yepper, I realize you like to stir, or invoke thought. Along that path, I provided multiple open doors in this intro thread above and you took the calm path and summarized... I was expecting your normal rebuttal.

So does this calmness and wish of good will to all indicate we’ll see a Mavic or maybe SpreadingWings in the Hanger shed? Oh the thought, gave myself a chuckle!

PatR · Oct 9, 2018

Not a chance. That would be too much like inviting a known thief to spend the night in my home unattended. I had my days with DJI.

The linked article pretty much sums things up from my perspective going forward. Pretty much everything in the FAA's re-authorization bill is what I predicted would come to pass some years ago and as such I don't see much future for small sUAS. We are going to be regulated out of the sky and if that doesn't work the cost of equipment certification standards will incur price increases we won't be able to afford. This was actually discussed and predicted back in 2007, with planning for ASME testing laid out during internal meetings in 2013. FYI, domestic BLOS sUAS makers have been submitting components for design limit testing since 2016 and performing internal stress testing to ASME standards since 2014. For me it will come down to custom builds where the entry level price can be more than some want to spend but you have what you want, the way you want it when it's done, with the ability to modify as needed when conditions require. There’s an option of more or less walking away from the whole thing as it can cost more to participate than can be recovered in business activity.

I took the calm path because it's both unwise and unfair to call someone out for the equipment they employ. I'm not them and I don't have a clue as to what their needs and abilities are. DJI makes some pretty darn good hardware that works great most of the time. They also have an extremely wide independent developer base, and in some cases not so independent as they are paid to develop new app codes on a full time basis. Nobody else in the consumer drone sector even tries to match in that regard, and only APM/Pixhawk, PX4, and Eagle Tree provide enough system access for users to effectively adapt their systems to meet specific needs. It has come to the point that big money players will be controlling the market.

Oops, forgot to add the link.
Will Drones and Planes be Treated as Equals by FAA?

Dougcjohn · Oct 13, 2018

PatR said:
Not a chance. That would be too much like inviting a known thief to spend the night in my home unattended. I had my days with DJI.

The linked article pretty much sums things up from my perspective going forward. Pretty much everything in the FAA's re-authorization bill is what I predicted would come to pass some years ago and as such I don't see much future for small sUAS. We are going to be regulated out of the sky and if that doesn't work the cost of equipment certification standards will incur price increases we won't be able to afford. This was actually discussed and predicted back in 2007, with planning for ASME testing laid out during internal meetings in 2013. FYI, domestic BLOS sUAS makers have been submitting components for design limit testing since 2016 and performing internal stress testing to ASME standards since 2014. For me it will come down to custom builds where the entry level price can be more than some want to spend but you have what you want, the way you want it when it's done, with the ability to modify as needed when conditions require. There’s an option of more or less walking away from the whole thing as it can cost more to participate than can be recovered in business activity.

I took the calm path because it's both unwise and unfair to call someone out for the equipment they employ. I'm not them and I don't have a clue as to what their needs and abilities are. DJI makes some pretty darn good hardware that works great most of the time. They also have an extremely wide independent developer base, and in some cases not so independent as they are paid to develop new app codes on a full time basis. Nobody else in the consumer drone sector even tries to match in that regard, and only APM/Pixhawk, PX4, and Eagle Tree provide enough system access for users to effectively adapt their systems to meet specific needs. It has come to the point that big money players will be controlling the market.

Oops, forgot to add the link.
Will Drones and Planes be Treated as Equals by FAA?

I'd agree with that totally... which is basically the focused direction of this post on data collection.
Previously, there was no need to collect data and was barely captured by most, usually not in a useful manor to assess or defend operations or aircraft indicators. Most collect a bit of battery stats in a manor more suited to determine best priced battery.

Previously, only the "astute" pilot captured data for their personal assessment requirements on aircraft & propulsion: Props, Battery, Motors, etc.

The direction of regulations, insurance policies, criminal or liability suits; clearly indicates the need to collect data and not casually but in a detailed manor. Some of us have performed military or commercial pre - post flight logs and is time consuming... especially if you held off on paper work until several days or missions. The major difference between piloted aircraft and RC, both the percentage and physical number of RC Owners & Pilots is massively greater and the competency is broader due to the requirements to obtain... thus the discipline to record is also a factor.

This level or even greater collection of detail will consume the "drudgery of manual entry" beyond the patience or attention to detail of most Flyers of RC Aircraft... Hobbyist or Commercial. If this could be automated, which it obviously can be automated will greatly improve both: collected data and the efficiency of the procedure to collect. Option 1: 15-60 minutes manual entry, Option 2: click a "sync" button with minor record edits, or Option 3: Simply Land and it Sync's. As detailed above, it collects a full scope of data: battery, Telemetry & Performance, Weather, etc. in a manor that can later be formatted into interval reports in a template to meet the current required standards.

In the short range; This is available in some platforms and is another "market product" that will need to be adapted by any competitive company, not just market leaders. In the long range; It's going to become a cycle like all other regulations... as the ability to collect is improved, the requirements of reported content will increase. Automation to collect will probably become mandated eventually to assure accuracy & validity of data.

In a rough parallel, Medical. When the Physician was required to dictate and secretary type, the desire to complete was low and requirements were minimal. As automation cycle has improved medical collection of data, the Physician is able to more efficiently enter a smaller subset of data and the other areas of automation collect massive data providing a greater collection for reports, legal and insurance. Driven by the "need" and provided by competitive companies of automation...

many from companies not within the desired playground of the established environment.