Excited, and then Deflated

[ragboy]

So after testing on our property before hitting the water, we tested the typhoon H today doing tracking shots while wake surfing. First, I will say that the follow me mode with the Typhoon H is the MOST stable of any drone I have seen to date, it was rock solid and blew me away. It allowed me to flip the gimbal and pan switches down and I was able to use the gimbal slider and pan knob with one hand, and then just make slight adjustments to follow me with the right stick after setting a good altitude. I did this at only 8 feet off of the water, which has proven in the past for me to be the best angle. I have this other camera rig that is a big pole off of our boat that holds the camera out on the side and I swear at times, the drone in follow me is so stable that it feels like a pole. That is the part that had me overjoyed. I even worked out a pretty cool technique with my left 3rd finger on the gimbal control and my left index and thumb on the pan knob to keep the frame exactly where I wanted it, AWESOME.

I did this in 4k at fist, and seemed great on the screen, then I switched over to 1080P/120. 4k is great for more scenic shots fly bys, but 1080/120 is a MUST for filming surfing so that I can edit and control speed and slo-mo during tricks. I noticed right away when going to 1080/120 that the ST16 screen seemed to be a much lower res, but I didn't worry about it.

When I got home to review footage, the 4k AWB was a bit off, but I am sure I can play with the settings and even in post make it look better, it was sharp, and maybe not hero 5 quality, or phantom quality, but good. Then I looked at the 1080P/120 footage, and it looks like dog food. I don't say that to be obnoxious or to start a flame fest, but it is that bad. This is an unlisted quick video just for this thread, hoping there is something that can be done to help this. I did plan on doing a review on my channel, even though most of the stuff we do is ALL wake surfing, we periodically do reviews on the gear we use.

Here it is, is this normal for the Typhoon H? That would be so disappointing. I mastered this into 1080P.

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[Shadowolf]

What was your shutter speed?
Did you use nd filters?
What was the iso?
Why did you shoot in auto white balance?
I assume it was shot with a preset like gourgious?

 

[JulesTEO]

So after testing on our property before hitting the water, we tested the typhoon H today doing tracking shots while wake surfing. First, I will say that the follow me mode with the Typhoon H is the MOST stable of any drone I have seen to date, it was rock solid and blew me away. It allowed me to flip the gimbal and pan switches down and I was able to use the gimbal slider and pan knob with one hand, and then just make slight adjustments to follow me with the right stick after setting a good altitude. I did this at only 8 feet off of the water, which has proven in the past for me to be the best angle. I have this other camera rig that is a big pole off of our boat that holds the camera out on the side and I swear at times, the drone in follow me is so stable that it feels like a pole. That is the part that had me overjoyed. I even worked out a pretty cool technique with my left 3rd finger on the gimbal control and my left index and thumb on the pan knob to keep the frame exactly where I wanted it, AWESOME.

I did this in 4k at fist, and seemed great on the screen, then I switched over to 1080P/120. 4k is great for more scenic shots fly bys, but 1080/120 is a MUST for filming surfing so that I can edit and control speed and slo-mo during tricks. I noticed right away when going to 1080/120 that the ST16 screen seemed to be a much lower res, but I didn't worry about it.

When I got home to review footage, the 4k AWB was a bit off, but I am sure I can play with the settings and even in post make it look better, it was sharp, and maybe not hero 5 quality, or phantom quality, but good. Then I looked at the 1080P/120 footage, and it looks like dog food. I don't say that to be obnoxious or to start a flame fest, but it is that bad. This is an unlisted quick video just for this thread, hoping there is something that can be done to help this. I did plan on doing a review on my channel, even though most of the stuff we do is ALL wake surfing, we periodically do reviews on the gear we use.

Here it is, is this normal for the Typhoon H? That would be so disappointing. I mastered this into 1080P.

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Have you updated the H yet? I also noticed significantly reduced quality on video on the H when I first tested 120fps, video looked jagged and simply lower quality..

I read many people found much better results after an update. I recently updated but havent tested yet, i will try and check later.

Greetings

 

[ragboy]

I didn't touch any ISO or shutter settings this first time around. My main problem with the quality was NOT the color balance and stuff, but the sharpness and quality of the encoding. There are heavy artifacts and other issues and a complete lack of sharpness.

I am a software & systems engineer by day and extremely technical. I made sure I had updated the firmware wherever possible when I first got the system last week, updating the ST16, camera, etc.

 

[Mickeyboo]

Rugby states: I didn't touch any ISO or shutter settings this first time around. My main problem with the quality was NOT the color balance and stuff, but the sharpness and quality of the encoding. Do I understand you correctly when you say you did not change shutter settings? Does this mean you used same shutter speed for 30fps 4K and 120fps for 1080? If you're "extremely technical" you may wish to explore the settings a bit more and learn how to manually make settings which correctly address frame rate, exposure and color balance. My apologies if I've misunderstood what you've done but I would attribute from what you've said to not being "extremely technical" when it comes to calculating settings which will bring you the best results...I've shot both 120 fps 1080 and 30fps 4K without any issues.

 

[Shadowolf]

Try with manual settings and you can connect to camera with phone laptop via wifi and ip address and tweak the sharpness. I would have to find it on this forum again on how to do it.
I typically shoot in raw and post processing after to adjust the video
But that's me.

 

[Typhoon Charlie]

Shutter should be twice frame rate.

 

[JulesTEO]

I didn't touch any ISO or shutter settings this first time around. My main problem with the quality was NOT the color balance and stuff, but the sharpness and quality of the encoding. There are heavy artifacts and other issues and a complete lack of sharpness.

I am a software & systems engineer by day and extremely technical. I made sure I had updated the firmware wherever possible when I first got the system last week, updating the ST16, camera, etc.

I understand exactly what you mean. Image looks much worse than normal: it seems zoomed in (smaller part of sensor actually working), less sharpness, and in general much lower quality (particularly noticeable in water!) since I believe its also at lower bitrate. All of these aspects happen in order for the HW to record at 120 fps.

Kind of a bummer I know, but it seems its a common issue among consumer-grade devices that 120fps, other UAVs, phones and action cameras have similar issues. This is not an exclusive H problem.

Testing different settings might help improve overall quality (for example manual WB by itself boosts general quality considerably)

Greetings!

 

[glider]

Personally I would pay close attention to what Mickeyboo suggests. Just sayin.

 

[Shadowolf]

."I did plan on doing a review on my channel, even though most of the stuff we do is ALL wake surfing, we periodically do reviews on the gear we use"
Also I advise understanding how the equipment works and proper use before doing a review. And by not using the proper settings shows that you may need to learn a little more.
This is the problem with U tube. There is some great info out there but there is a lot of crap. People doing reviews of stuff they don't have a clue on how it works or how to get the most from it. Just so they can get hits and a couple of bucks.

 

[PatR]

The faster the frame rate the smaller the image size. Only so much data can be moved over X amount of time. The faster the frame rate the less time per frame. You can easily see the effects of this when using high speed cameras where the frame rate is changed from less to more. The rendered image is always smaller.

The white balance settings for the H are not ideal. Even if you take the time to use a grey card and establish presets some correction is often necessary in post. It's pretty easy though, cool the temperature just a little and increase saturation just a little. This is very easy in a video editor as well.

Sharpness level can be adjusted. Yours is probably set to 6. Bump it up to 8. Use the search function for how.

As mentioned, if you don't understand how to use the equipment (you don't) the results will always be less than desired. Technicians that watch reviews made by people that use equipment incorrectly get a pretty good laugh when they see user errors blamed on the equipment. These errors are usually pretty obvious. The best camera you can have is the one in your hand at that moment-if you know how to use it.

Amateurs always blame the equipment...

 

[glider]

Pat too

Personally I would pay close attention to what Mickeyboo suggests. Just sayin.

 

[CraigCam]

Water is part of the problem. The higher the frame rate the more you see each shift as the camera reacts to the changes in light from all the sun bouncing. Your Autel doesn't look any better and suffers from the same noticeable "blink" and artifacts. QuickTime can't play anything above 60 frames so it's hard to judge anything above that rate without getting into post and seeing how it renders out for normal HD playback and YouTube will hammer it again. A 120 rate is great for slo mo but you will also see all the light movement more. My buddy has a Sony camera that does 1000 frames. Amazing and annoying simultaneously as images blink. Don't get me wrong, the CGO3+ is far from perfect and does not "pop" like the Autel or DJI camera. It's not as hyped and requires time and patience to dial in reliable settings. That being said, I find it's neutral color balance easier to deal with at post and I've got no need for 4k until that's the standard we all can use and view easily. The higher resolution and frame rate will create more anomalies then less. 4k is for marketing still and yet to be practical.

 

[Dr Delta]

This is an interesting thread.
Not much other posts about the camera and its settings around.

Would welcome more precise advise like what shutter speed or ISO recommended in shown footage. Nice footage, indeed poor quality in the 120fps part... pity.
(I never use 120 fps, by the way).

 

[THoff]

Shutter should be twice frame rate.

That is a typical film (as in Hollywood) setting where shutter speed is generally expressed in degrees -- a 24 fps movie shot with a 180 degree shutter exposes for 1/48 second.

But without a physical shutter and no way to control the aperture on the CGO3+, the only way to expose the image correctly is by varying the duration for which electrons are collected by the sensor. In bright conditions like the one in the OP's video, shutter speeds are much shorter than twice the framerate. That also creates very sharp video because there is little motion blur.

I would strongly recommend getting a set of ND (Neutral Density) filters when recording in bright conditions so that you can use slower shutter speeds. It also helps mitigate the problem of capturing the shadow that the props can cast when filming in the direction of the sun.

 

[PatR]

Many of the suggestions made thus far share a common basis; an understanding of basic photographic principles, knowledge of the equipment used to produce good photos, and the relationship of light to shutter speed, with how adjusting one impacts the other.

 

[CraigCam]

That is a typical film (as in Hollywood) setting where shutter speed is generally expressed in degrees -- a 24 fps movie shot with a 180 degree shutter exposes for 1/48 second.

But without a physical shutter and no way to control the aperture on the CGO3+, the only way to expose the image correctly is by varying the duration for which electrons are collected by the sensor. In bright conditions like the one in the OP's video, shutter speeds are much shorter than twice the framerate. That also creates very sharp video because there is little motion blur.

I would strongly recommend getting a set of ND (Neutral Density) filters when recording in bright conditions so that you can use slower shutter speeds. It also helps mitigate the problem of capturing the shadow that the props can cast when filming in the direction of the sun.[/endQUOTE]

Yup. ND filters change everything. You will learn to set the camera in the air as you need to set up closer to shooting conditions and ground light bounce throws the sensors off. You will get more lens flares but they don't bug me and I've learned to use them creatively. Sun angle and shadow are also very important and if you shoot in the middle of the day when light is flat you get duller results. I suggest early morning or pre sunset to catch "golden hours" as it helps make everything look much better.

 

[CraigCam]

Foreground vs background...what is the camera focused on? It doesn't know until one color dominates and is searching especially when tilted from sky to earth. Most of the US during good flying weather, the camera has blue or green as dominant colors which shift less between them. Here in the Southwest, I've got varying shades of red and brown at ground and huge blue sky above. I watch my histogram and tend to under expose and have a note on my ST to myself that images on the St are darker then on HD monitors and good laptops. No one is going to get cinema quality shots without spending crazy money on a bigger platform and better camera.

 

[FlushVision]

I normally shoot at 30fps at 1080p. I can see the need to shoot at 120fps if there is an intention to do some slow motion stuff but when doing so it is important to make sure that the shutter speed is adjusted accordingly. It just happens, though, that for the sort of stuff I do I have no requirement to shoot at 120fps. For certain stuff I may up it to 60fps but that's as far as I go.

Incidentally, as mentioned in a post above, until 4K is a standard similar to what 1080p is now, I too will continue to shoot at 1080p unless a client insists on 4K and even then I will advise that client against it. I have shot some stuff at 4K if only to test it and to ensure that I have a means of viewing the results so that I can offer it as an 'unadvised' option to my clients. I will say, though, that there seems to be an improvement to the image quality with 4K rendered at 1080p, but not so great to warrant the hassle.

 

[ragboy]

So, a few things. I have been filming on the water and with my family for 20 years, and have been using action cams and experimenting with so many the whole time, long before drones and go pros. Once the go pro came out I have used them almost exclusively since the hero 2. Last year I had 2 hero silvers that I primarily used for ship to shore transmission at many wakesurf events, and then 2 hero 4 blacks for my channel videos. Before 1080/120, I used to run 720/60, then 720/120 when available, and then now almost exclusively 1080/120 and am now running that on hero 5 blacks. Being a software and systems engineer by day I have setup a video storage system with over 60TB and then my local (and mobile) editing solution has 5TB, all SSD for a fast workflow. I say all of that to say that I am NOT new to this, newer at drone work than video work, but long time videographer. So I have a lot to compare the 120fps footage from the H to, including my iPhone 7 which also shoots at 1080/120, and it looks fantastic.

I have years of experience with H.264 encoding and the artifacts and quality that come from various types of bitrates, encoding algorithms, chip encoders, etc.

All of that said, most of the time the cameras I use work great in FULL AUTO mode when doing shots like these in bright daylight outdoors. I have had to play with settings, for instance when doing low light work, overcast, etc. The color and balance of the 120 clip is a secondary concern. The issues I see, in my experience, seem to be more related to the quality of the hardware in the camera, and the actual on the fly h.264 encoding. The artifacts in the water and the distant trees and the lack of definition around the riders head and so forth.

Before I decide whether or not I want to try to return this drone for poor quality video, I was looking for any tips on quality, bitrate, or other settings that may affect the quality. One of the things I noticed, is that it seems like when you switch to 1080 from 4k on the H, the software is zooming into the center 1920x1080 pixel square captured by the camera and then adjusts the bitrate and encoding to be able to handle the 120FPS. With all of the other cameras I have used before, I have never seen that, its like a bit of a hack. If you try it on your own H, you will see what I mean.

Again, although I do wish the H were a bit more portable I loved the way it flew, and the follow me stability was amazing. Second to none I have tried or know of. I REALLY want to see this work so that I can get that great stable footage, but with acceptable quality.

Side note: I actually bought a Karma before trying the H. The video from the Hero 5 is superb and I loved the karma grip, but the battery lasted 11 minutes and the drone had a horrible vibration/resonating issue that was completely unacceptable. The H was my second drone to try, and if I couldn't get that to work, the plan was to go with the safe and portable mavic.