Well PatR... easy to say, really hard to practise... From how many meters can a H drop " dead" and still be in one piece? ½ a meter? How can you find a nice spot to land when you are that far away and don't even see the ground? Well, nice thought but... The best advice , don't fly further up/out than you can SEE a safe spot to land w/o disarming the motors.
Good evening all! A little help please
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I could be wrong, but I think the scenario @PatR was trying illustrate would be
being out say ½ mile, at say 14.4V and you know you can't get back to your current location on current battery levels. But assuming you still have video link, you can tilt the camera down to get a view of whether you can land safely where the drone is and take a hike to retrieve. AFAIK.
being out say ½ mile, at say 14.4V and you know you can't get back to your current location on current battery levels. But assuming you still have video link, you can tilt the camera down to get a view of whether you can land safely where the drone is and take a hike to retrieve. AFAIK.
Hey! It's all good advice. Situational awareness should always be the first priority.
You are right, if everything works and you can see the ground with the cam...that's great PatR! Like this pic a took last summer, it might be possible to find a safe spot..
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PatR
Premium Pilot
You brought up very important point. Safety does not always include saving the aircraft. There are situations where destruction of the aircraft is the best course of action.
One scenario would be where you experienced a fly away and the aircraft was heading in the direction of a nearby airport or crowded sporting event. If you could not regain control but still had the ability to down the aircraft by disarming the motors you would have the ability to prevent possible death, injury, or property damage of others. The total loss of your aircraft is inconsequential in such a scenario.
If our only concern is ourself and OUR property/money I’m afraid a revision of our personal values is in order. Something else to consider; if we cannot afford to lose and replace an aircraft we cannot afford to fly them at all.
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FlushVision
Premium Pilot
My Ops Manual specifically highlights this. As part of my boldface emergency procedures as well as in other sections of my manual. When surveying a FOO (Field Of Operations) I always see if there is a suitable secondary landing spots away from my take-off position. A secondary landing site isn't always a good place to land without damage to the aircraft but always better to have identified places to ditch the aircraft before lifting off in the first place rather than trying to find one if the poo hits the fan. Better a broken aircraft than a broken head.
And on that, check with your homeowner's insurance. I have a rider on my policy for my H. For $15/year, it covers theft, loss, and destruction (no matter what caused it) of the entire kit (aircraft, controller, accessories, etc).
It's important to note that many if not most of these riders do not cover liability, which is why I also joined AMA for their $2.5m liability policy.
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The only problem with that is the deductible. Mine is far more than the value of an H+.
Riders are often 0 deductible even if the policy they're attached to isn't. Though they sometimes have an out of pocket diagnostic requirement. I had a similar rider on a laptop a few years back. Dropped it, had to pay a shop $80 to tell me what I already knew, that it was broken and not worth repairing. Ins. Co sent me a grand to get a new one.
PatR
Premium Pilot
Many homeowners policies specifically exclude coverage for any type of aviation related article or accident, model or full scale.
Yeah... Most of them do. But, depending on your ins. co, you can get a *rider* to the policy which covers more than the policy would otherwise.
I got a rider that specifically covers the Typhoon. They know exactly what they're covering because they had me send them the make/model/serial number and receipt.
Note that once I start using it commercially, I will cancel that rider because it only covers hobby/rec use.
I got a rider that specifically covers the Typhoon. They know exactly what they're covering because they had me send them the make/model/serial number and receipt.
Note that once I start using it commercially, I will cancel that rider because it only covers hobby/rec use.
Easy to say but the user maybe unfamiliar with the area, there maybe issues of landing on private property and having difficulty getting to the copter, or even complexity of the landscape. Blocking by tree etc. Not sure about US, laws flying and landing on private property, but in an emergency if possible in an ideal world land to prevent a catastrophe, then dodge the dogs, barbwire and farmer with a shotgun. Perhaps with experience you get a feel of batteries, but not unpredictable voltage drop, half way through a flight so say.
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PatR
Premium Pilot
Once again we are focused on saving the multirotor...Wrong attitude.
There may come a time where sacrificing the multirotor is the only appropriate action. Even a situation where the operator can’t find their way back or retrieve it it’s better to plant it where it would cause no or minimal collateral damage. A controlled crash is preferable to an uncontrolled crash.
The act is called “intentional downing” in 107 regs. Sacrificing the aircraft is secondary in importance, avoiding inflicting damage or injury upon others is primary. No importance is provided to the ultimate condition or disposition of the multirotor.
We may have a right to fly, but we have an obligation to assure the lives and property of others is not endangered by our actions.
Perhaps an easier way for some to understand it is knowing that anything they do to save their multirotor that in turn causes someone else to be injured or suffer a property loss makes the operator liable for that loss or injury, along with whatever punitive damages a judge or jury awards to those who suffered the loss. The price paid for being self centered and/or short on logic. Saving their multirotor was not important in the greater scope.
There may come a time where sacrificing the multirotor is the only appropriate action. Even a situation where the operator can’t find their way back or retrieve it it’s better to plant it where it would cause no or minimal collateral damage. A controlled crash is preferable to an uncontrolled crash.
The act is called “intentional downing” in 107 regs. Sacrificing the aircraft is secondary in importance, avoiding inflicting damage or injury upon others is primary. No importance is provided to the ultimate condition or disposition of the multirotor.
We may have a right to fly, but we have an obligation to assure the lives and property of others is not endangered by our actions.
Perhaps an easier way for some to understand it is knowing that anything they do to save their multirotor that in turn causes someone else to be injured or suffer a property loss makes the operator liable for that loss or injury, along with whatever punitive damages a judge or jury awards to those who suffered the loss. The price paid for being self centered and/or short on logic. Saving their multirotor was not important in the greater scope.
PatR
Premium Pilot
Perhaps making a reference to flight planning is in order. If, prior to lift off, we plan the flight and then fly the plan we will be better positioned to make intelligent choices if and when something goes wrong.
In planning the flight we would have contemplated the various situations that could define an “emergency” and had made contingency plans for such an event. As mentioned before, aviation is all about planning for “what if”. We do that planning before we fly. When something happens the outcome can largely be decided by the action we executed while still in control.
In planning the flight we would have contemplated the various situations that could define an “emergency” and had made contingency plans for such an event. As mentioned before, aviation is all about planning for “what if”. We do that planning before we fly. When something happens the outcome can largely be decided by the action we executed while still in control.
intentional downing doesn't exist here, you have to remember not everyone flies in built up area, if mine crashes then it crashes, I intentionally fly in the remote areas, with good chance of retrieval, because there's nobody or buildings to crash into, OK I won't get a dramatic skyline building shot but I'm not too concerned, a sunset or a water fall miles from civilisation does me fine, luckily I've not encountered many walkers so far but happy to wait for them to go out of sight before I fly. Perhaps my flying is boring to some, but I'm not a thrill seeker, flying through buildings, car windows or racing above people on a beach. I don't know you or you know me, I don't post to be judged, I know you are seen as some god on here, but not everything you say applies to everyone else around the world. It would be human nature to try and save a persons copter from crashing, planning is the easy part on the ground, since most areas I've flown and walked personally for decades. Your advice is welcome to thrill seekers and people who take silly risks but not so much boring old farts.
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FlushVision
Premium Pilot
With respect, @Mrgs1 , it does.
A PfCO holder should have in his Ops Manual 'Boldface' emergency procedures that specifically dictate an intentional downing if possible in the event of an uncontrolled flyaway.
I'm sure that other PfCO holders will phrase the procedure differently but you can be sure that they have the procedure spelled out in their Ops Manuals because if they haven't they would never get their Ops Manuals approved by the CAA.
Note that in a flyaway event through loss of control, stopping the motors to down the aircraft may not be possible anyway.
Yes fly away isn't always possible to rectify. Human nature isn't always infallible, I'm sure some would try everything before possibly destroying their investment, people put on the spot don't always think rational. It's all very well people sitting in your high chair preaching this is how it's done. We are all still learning new things, hopefully not many people experience a total loss,.
PatR
Premium Pilot
Learning new things is what this is all about. Having knowledge of something implies we have already learned or at least became cognizant of something well enough to recognize it. Knowledge and recognition allow us to make intelligent choices.
I agree with FV that during a total loss of control (which would include loss of RC and failure of the return to controller protocol) the ability to shut down the aircraft would most likely be lost as well. But would someone automatically consider trying to shut it down? Would they consider that an H flying full speed with GPS off travels at close to 50 mph, .833 miles/min, 4400’/min, and travel somewhere between 8-10 miles on a fresh battery? Would they have the presence of mind to make a sound decision?
If they had lost orientation and RTH no longer possible due to battery state would they continue trying to fly it back? Would they elect to land straight down into a tree or try to land next to people in the only available landing area? If flying over water would they put it in the water or try to make it into a crowded beach?
People are always fallible, decision making can become irrational, panic can take over, eliminating rational thought processes. That’s why PILOTS practice dealing with emergencies on a constant basis. They learn what to do before an emergency occurs, minimizing the opportunity for panic, making their responses more automatic instead of sitting there wondering what they should do.
Yes, we should always conduct our flights in open areas, keeping the aircraft close enough where we always have good line of sight and can maintain orientation, but reality is that is not always done.
Just an FYI, intentionally grounding an aircraft is a practice that goes far back in aviation and still done today. Aircraft valued from 6 to 10 figures are put into the ground, intentionally destroying them for various reasons for the safety of those on the ground, to save the pilot, or to prevent an aircraft from falling into the wrong hands. Getting our aircraft back in good condition is always a priority, but it should not be priority #1. Safety holds that position.
BTW, I am not a god, just someone with a lot of experience, a person that has already made most, if not all the mistakes you will eventually make, and learned from them. The lessons learned are what I’m trying to share with you to help you avoid making the same mistakes. Yes, I have intentionally downed an aircraft. More than one actually, and each “investment” was over $200k. Not my money but a bad decision would end a career. Those actions were the best available for the time and place.
FlushVision
Premium Pilot
In my Ops Manual, my emergency boldface procedures dictate various things to try before reaching a forced landing decision by attempting to turn the motors off. However, my Ops Manual also spells out pre-flight procedures to be carried out which include a site survey to identify anything that may impact on the flight and to identify areas that a safe forced landing can be made. In other words, I plan for the possibility of a forced landing even before I've taken to the air! Since my forced landing procedures are in the emergency 'boldface' section of my Ops Manual they are ingrained into my gray matter so that if an event occurs that ultimately requires a forced landing, then that procedure should be carried out without second thought.
It could be said that this is the sort of thing that makes the distinction between a hobby pilot and a PfCO pilot. For example, a hobby pilot is unlikely to have an exhaustive Ops Manual that spells out emergency procedures, and if he does it won't have been approved by the CAA. I will add, though, that a hobby pilot having an Ops Manual with emergency procedures is not a bad thing to have even though it won't have CAA approval.
Ultimately, no one likes having to do a forced landing, whether it is a controlled landing some way off caused by a low battery too far out to return to my primary landing site, say, or because of a flyaway event. However, in the event of a flyaway if all other reasonable attempts have failed to bring the aircraft under control, I will push that red button without hesitation...without second thoughts, and hope that my aircraft can be repaired after I've pushed it. (Again, note that if all control has been lost, pushing that red button may not have any effect anyway, but at least I've tried).
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PatR
Premium Pilot
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