Of Batteries and the Typhoon H

[FlushVision]

I got a CG 03+ camera from them on special, £149.99. The batteries were £59 like curry's but sold out now at that special.

Batteries still priced at £89.99 at Jessops. Ohh I wish I could buy one at £59. If you recall, just before I ordered that battery I queried that £89.00 'low' price wondering why it was £20.00 cheaper than a competitor. All I have to do is wait a few weeks.

As an aside, I flight tested a very old P2V yesterday that had been sitting on a shelf for almost 3 years. Flew like a dream but there is a problem with video downfeed that I'm gonna have to sort out.

 

[shockazulu]

Gonna try that ebay adapter and the battery PatR suggested. I'll post back the findings.

The battery adapter has been selling on eBay for about 6 months now. You will notice the $20 kit includes a GPS adapter..... That GPS adapter would be needed for any batteries that do not have the same mass as the stock battery.
If you use a smaller or larger battery than the stock battery, without using the GPS adapter.... you will find insatiable flights due to compass interference.
The compass is in the GPS module, and the GPS module is located to close to other internal electrical interference.
Yuneec tuned the compass to work with the internal electrical interference, based on the magnetic signature of the battery they chose to use.
The GPS adapter solves many problems by bringing the compass outside of the Typhoon H's shell and away from all the electrical interference.
With the GPS adapter you can use any battery size and have stable compass readings and control.
Without the GPS adapter using alternative battery mods could result in a crash.
Also this GPS adapter helps lock onto more satellites and much faster.
On eBay the GPS adapter by itself is $7, or the battery adapter that includes the GPS adapter is only $20.
As of now the eBay listing notes 3 battery choices that work with the adapter.
You only need one battery adapter for each Typhoon H, and the adapter can stay inside the battery bay while changing batteries.

 

[Grumpy]

The suspense is killing me

 

[PatR]

The battery adapter has been selling on eBay for about 6 months now. You will notice the $20 kit includes a GPS adapter..... That GPS adapter would be needed for any batteries that do not have the same mass as the stock battery.
If you use a smaller or larger battery than the stock battery, without using the GPS adapter.... you will find insatiable flights due to compass interference.
The compass is in the GPS module, and the GPS module is located to close to other internal electrical interference.
Yuneec tuned the compass to work with the internal electrical interference, based on the magnetic signature of the battery they chose to use.
The GPS adapter solves many problems by bringing the compass outside of the Typhoon H's shell and away from all the electrical interference.
With the GPS adapter you can use any battery size and have stable compass readings and control.
Without the GPS adapter using alternative battery mods could result in a crash.
Also this GPS adapter helps lock onto more satellites and much faster.
On eBay the GPS adapter by itself is $7, or the battery adapter that includes the GPS adapter is only $20.
As of now the eBay listing notes 3 battery choices that work with the adapter.
You only need one battery adapter for each Typhoon H, and the adapter can stay inside the battery bay while changing batteries.

I’m not buying the GPS interference relative to battery mass thing at all. The GPS is either shielded from EMI or it’s not, and what it does have is limited to the underside of the antenna, covering the entire inside of the upper shell.

 

[Good time Charlie]

I believe it has to do with the routing of the power cables along the length of the adapter causing interference. The adapter uses an XT90 plug at the rear of the tray and routes power forward to the stock H input.

I have one of those adapters sitting on my workbench that's never been used. Just haven't needed to yet. The only real problem I can spot is the power wires are a little on the light side for my preference and will need to be upgraded if it ever gets put to use.

 

[PatR]

What are those, 16AWG? The primary wires inside factory batteries are 14AWG while the main bard power supply wires are 12 AWG.

Just for discussion, one of the 2.4 receiver antenna wires runs diagonally across the bottom of the battery box from one side to the other. The receiver itself is sticky taped to one side of the battery box at the aft end. The GPS cable runs from the GPS antenna but a short distance to the top of the main board just forward of the antenna.

 

[shockazulu]

I’m not buying the GPS interference relative to battery mass thing at all. The GPS is either shielded from EMI or it’s not, and what it does have is limited to the underside of the antenna, covering the entire inside of the upper shell.

The shielding does not cover the entire underside of the shell...
There are 2 big openings on both sides is the gps module used for ventilation.
I believe this flaw putting the air vents on both sides of the gps module are what allows interference with the module.
I tested several batteries without the GPS mod.
The orange 6300mah battery worked perfectly.
The orange 7500mah and the green 8000mah both experienced near loss of control, always becoming a fight to land safely without damage.
I tested with 2 different typhoon h's both with same results. One with realsence one without.
I was baffled why the 6300mah didn't have this issue.
With the GPS mod the problem was cured.
I am only guessing it was due to moving the compass further away from electrical interference.
The 6300mah battery is near exactly the same mass as the stock batteries. I believe this is why it has no issues flying without the GPS mod. And why I theorized that yuneec has the software tuned to offset for the normal magnetic signature with the stock batteries
Also noted is my drones lock onto satellite's almost instantly with the gps mod. Where before I would regularly wait a long time to get a lock before I could take off.

 

[PatR]

I don't doubt the GPS mod allows for faster satellite acquisition. As I have only ordered a 6000mA battery I have no way to validate or invalidate your testing and I have no desire to spend more money on different batteries that will serve me little purpose as I don't fly my H's much (at all really) any more.

I do sort of wonder how much influence the thin power wires running the upper length of the battery have on your experiences. It's not much larger than the ESC to motor wires on the main board.

 

[John Hennessy]

The shielding does not cover the entire underside of the shell...
There are 2 big openings on both sides is the gps module used for ventilation.
I believe this flaw putting the air vents on both sides of the gps module are what allows interference with the module.
I tested several batteries without the GPS mod.
The orange 6300mah battery worked perfectly.
The orange 7500mah and the green 8000mah both experienced near loss of control, always becoming a fight to land safely without damage.
I tested with 2 different typhoon h's both with same results. One with realsence one without.
I was baffled why the 6300mah didn't have this issue.
With the GPS mod the problem was cured.
I am only guessing it was due to moving the compass further away from electrical interference.
The 6300mah battery is near exactly the same mass as the stock batteries. I believe this is why it has no issues flying without the GPS mod. And why I theorized that yuneec has the software tuned to offset for the normal magnetic signature with the stock batteries
Also noted is my drones lock onto satellite's almost instantly with the gps mod. Where before I would regularly wait a long time to get a lock before I could take off.

Hi shock a Zulu,
I purchased this adapter and module adapter and found that the wires used in the battery adapter were too small and not correct size as PatR stated and also they are not silicone insulated like the factory ones. This has been dealt with in lier thread where I did my tests and found a lot of inconsistencies with what the seller of this adapter was quoting. One member bought one adapter d put it all on and it flew very weird and his quote was that you pay a S ----t price you get S---T.
IF YUNEEC did not need to use silicone insulated wire for to he battery power and power button they would not , and save heaps $$$$ by not putting it in the UAV'S.
The module relocator is of very poor 3d print construction and does not move the module far enough away from the electronic interference of the battery adapter. Hence the poor flyin characteristics. Also about the two vents each side of the GPS and compass module ,they do not give ventilation to the module Unit as this is totally encased by the factory shielding for the module when it is situated in its original position. Have a look at some threads and photos of the gps module relocation and you will see.
Johnno Hennessy. Keep flying on the green side of the grass.

 

[John Hennessy]

These are just some of the photos for you to look at. These were taken a while ago, but it looks like the items have not changed. The last photo is of an adapter I have been trying to used 18650 li-ion batteries in but the only flew the H for 8 minutes, but have noticed now that SAMSUNG have 3000mah 25 amp draw NEW to the market recently. So this is where I was heading about 9 to 12 months ago when I was talking with you PatR . As you can see this was early March that I looked at these mods and not ventured any further. Johnno Hennessy.

 

[PatR]

Hi Johnno,

One iof the items in the text I’m preparing for my adapter mod is a reference only to use multi-strand silicone wire and no other type. Although not posted yet as the text is not complete it was written before mention of any GPS interference issues.

As the cooling vents have been mentioned a couple times it’s worth also mentioning the Typhoon H has very limited cooling inlets at the bottom shell. Between the top and the bottom the vent openings are grossly inadequate to effectively relieve electrically generated heat accumulation. There are zero forward facing vents to make use of forward flight to assist "forced air" cooling flow into the body. With 6 ESC’s encased by the shell surrounding the flight controller the FC has to get pretty darn hot. That doesn’t even consider the effects of black body thermal accumulation from the sun. Having the RC receiver stuck on the side of the battery box that becomes hotter as more power is as power demand increases doesn’t help things any but at least it’s close to one of the vents.

Regarding the potential for power wire EMI generation, it does happen and always has, which is why DIY builders learned a long time ago to avoid routing GPS antenna wires next to power supply wires. Batteries are excellent noise filters but the wires are not. If you were to build a hybrid power system that employed a gas engine to generate power to supply the battery, the easiest way to "condition" the power would be to run it through a battery before supplying the rest of the system. That's not practical as it limits power delivery to the battery's output capability, so power conditioning set ups employ heavy duty noise filters and FET's to "smooth" electrical generation. We might note the GPS data plug is located directly over the battery in the Typhoon H and left completely unshielded from the battery bay. Two of the six ESC’s are located immediately aft of the GPS data plug, also not shielded, and ESC’s are notable EMI generators as they are comprised of numerous electrical FET’s.

One other item that has me wondering are the 2.4 antenna wires themselves. Using a discussion about coax antenna wires that has been taking place in another thread as a segue, looking hard at the H antenna wires has me wanting to look at some 2.4 RC receivers to make some comparisons, which I'll do shortly.

Edit: After inspecting several 2.4 RC receivers I found Yuneec's antennas consistent with those on the RC receivers. My earlier suspicions were unfounded.

In a way the basic design of the H sets up a “perfect storm” condition for heat and EMI generated system failures. An enterprising individual might consider obtaining some adhesive backed copper foil and sheet the top and sides of the battery bay to shield the GPS circuit from the battery. That would not help at the ESC’s though as they are top mounted on the board along with the GPS circuit.

During the course of the battery adapter mod work I’ve been seriously considering removing the OBS module to make use of the sonar openings as cooling air inlets. I don’t know how removing that module from the electrical circuit would affect the rest if the system though.

 

[Good time Charlie]

What are those, 16AWG? The primary wires inside factory batteries are 14AWG while the main bard power supply wires are 12 AWG.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. It's one of those "What was he thinking?" moments. But the contraption otherwise seems to be ok. Not high quality, but how high quality is a hunk of velcro strapped over the battery hole? Replacing those silly little wires with proper cabling is a 20 minute solder job.

Imho, it's a solution. Whether it ever gets used or not? Eh probably not...in the end when this bunch of stock configuration batteries dries up I'll probably just put a plug on the old TH and run whatever I got.

 

[PatR]

To be perfectly candid, anyone that wants to swap back and forth between after market "standard" lipo batteries and "factory shell" batteries should go with that adapter. In fact, I'll be suggesting people not build a temporary wire adapter for several reasons. better to go with permanent wiring. If those adapter wires were corrected it's much, much more user friendly for using different types of batteries.

As for Velcro, the stuff has functioned perfectly to secure single and multiple battery installations of various sizes and weights since the dawn of multirotors. It's not as cosmetically pleasing as a button or lever latch mechanism but I dare say we pay a lot more attention to securing Velcro than we do to assuring a latch is correctly set. Velcro is also cheap and easy to replace when it wears out.

 

[Good time Charlie]

I use velcro freely. Cheap adapter, velcro, duct tape, as long as the battery is secure for the flight I don't really care.

 

[PatR]

I like that, a “get ‘er done” work ethic[emoji106]

 

[PatR]

To review some of what was discussed about GPS/compass shielding and cooling vents earlier, here are a couple pics of the top and bottom shells. The pictures were originally taken to emphasize the cooling vents so the top shell pic does not outline the EMI shielding. If we look closely at the top shell picture we can see the black faced copper shielding covering a heck of a lot more of the GPS/compass module than should be necessary. The only portion of the GPS/compass module not shielded is the data wires that connect to the main board. We might note the data transfer wires are not tightly twisted in a manner that complies with electrical assembly industry standards to minimize wire "cross talk" propagation. Cross talk usually occurs with very small diameter wires passing millivolt level electric current, but GPS might be subject to cross talk propagation as it is a low voltage circuit using small diameter wires. I don't know for certain what voltage is provided for Yuneec's GPS circuit but 3V is pretty common with GPS manufacturers.

 

[Eagle's Eye Video]

I’m working on the photo spread.

Just make sure the staples don't cover the "good" parts...

 

[Grumpy]

Hi Johnno,

One iof the items in the text I’m preparing for my adapter mod is a reference only to use multi-strand silicone wire and no other type. Although not posted yet as the text is not complete it was written before mention of any GPS interference issues.

As the cooling vents have been mentioned a couple times it’s worth also mentioning the Typhoon H has very limited cooling inlets at the bottom shell. Between the top and the bottom the vent openings are grossly inadequate to effectively relieve electrically generated heat accumulation. There are zero forward facing vents to make use of forward flight to assist "forced air" cooling flow into the body. With 6 ESC’s encased by the shell surrounding the flight controller the FC has to get pretty darn hot. That doesn’t even consider the effects of black body thermal accumulation from the sun. Having the RC receiver stuck on the side of the battery box that becomes hotter as more power is as power demand increases doesn’t help things any but at least it’s close to one of the vents.

Regarding the potential for power wire EMI generation, it does happen and always has, which is why DIY builders learned a long time ago to avoid routing GPS antenna wires next to power supply wires. Batteries are excellent noise filters but the wires are not. If you were to build a hybrid power system that employed a gas engine to generate power to supply the battery, the easiest way to "condition" the power would be to run it through a battery before supplying the rest of the system. That's not practical as it limits power delivery to the battery's output capability, so power conditioning set ups employ heavy duty noise filters and FET's to "smooth" electrical generation. We might note the GPS data plug is located directly over the battery in the Typhoon H and left completely unshielded from the battery bay. Two of the six ESC’s are located immediately aft of the GPS data plug, also not shielded, and ESC’s are notable EMI generators as they are comprised of numerous electrical FET’s.

One other item that has me wondering are the 2.4 antenna wires themselves. Using a discussion about coax antenna wires that has been taking place in another thread as a segue, looking hard at the H antenna wires has me wanting to look at some 2.4 RC receivers to make some comparisons, which I'll do shortly.

Edit: After inspecting several 2.4 RC receivers I found Yuneec's antennas consistent with those on the RC receivers. My earlier suspicions were unfounded.

In a way the basic design of the H sets up a “perfect storm” condition for heat and EMI generated system failures. An enterprising individual might consider obtaining some adhesive backed copper foil and sheet the top and sides of the battery bay to shield the GPS circuit from the battery. That would not help at the ESC’s though as they are top mounted on the board along with the GPS circuit.

During the course of the battery adapter mod work I’ve been seriously considering removing the OBS module to make use of the sonar openings as cooling air inlets. I don’t know how removing that module from the electrical circuit would affect the rest if the system though.

Just remove the upper and lower shells, viola, super cooling. Or, drill a couple of holes right above the sonar holes. Looks like there's room.

 

[PatR]

There is. Below as well.

 

[PatR]

Just make sure the staples don't cover the "good" parts...

It won’t be “that kind” of photo spread[emoji6]