Hello Fellow Yuneec Pilot!
Join our free Yuneec community and remove this annoying banner!
Sign up

Questions for the Experienced guys about the video recording and its playback issues

Interesting discussion, which I am reading as a neutral since I don't yet own my H Plus and nor do I fly commercially.

My gut tells me that any commission where either or both of the parties is a registered business is a commercial contract. But there must be situations where both parties are private individuals and the party without a drone would never consider paying a commercial rate for, say, an aerial photograph of his house. Paying a friend or neighbor $10 or $20 as a 'thank you' for a photograph - or even giving him a box of vegetables - seems to be a gray area.

The recipient didn't advertise for a drone photographer and nor did the drone operator advertise a service.

The recipient would never dream of paying more than a box of vegetables for the photo so the drone owner isn't taking business away from any licensed operator.

Seems to me that no-one gains by reporting this as an unlicensed operation.

My view changes when the recipient is a business.
 
Once anyone receives a consideration of any kind from the activity it becomes a commercial application. Using the homeowner theme as an example, someone might fly and photo a house for a neighbor because they thought it was nice. However the neighbor might use the photo to better advertise a house they intend to sell. As the homeowner elected to use the imagery to assist the sale the activity that generated the photo became a commercial endeavor. It does not matter who received or provided the consideration. That box of veggies exchanged for a photo is a consideration, plus it provides a means to help the aerial photographer to survive. Making videos and posting them on YouTube where revenue in any amount is obtained from clicks, views, or externally generated advertising is also consideration. There is no legal requirement for anyone creating or receiving imagery to be a business, only that consideration be provided at any point such imagery might be used. Once an aerial image is publicly shared the opportunity for consideration expands exponentially, as recent court interpretations of copyright law well demonstrate.

In the case of an earlier cell tower example the person was clearly using a drone to promote business, and how the use of new technology could benefit his customers, even if the drone demonstration or imagery was being shown to previously existing customers. He could have hired a professional to do that but doing it himself was cheaper.
 
Last edited:
Once anyone receives a consideration of any kind from the activity it becomes a commercial application.

PatR, I understand but the transaction I invented hasn't taken business away from anyone because the homeowner did not announce any need for an advertising photo and nor would he ever contemplate paying the commercial rate for one.

To take your argument to its logical conclusion, any hobbyist uploading a drone video to YouTube is jeopardising the commercial operators because YouTube makes money indirectly from the video and maybe the uploader also earns a few pennies from the YouTube views. It must also constitute advertising for Yuneec.

Arguably, even Yuneec Pilots indirectly profits from the amateur videos it links to.

So I think you have to draw the line somewhere.
 
Once anyone receives a consideration of any kind from the activity it becomes a commercial application.

In the UK as I understand the application of the law, it is illegal to take off with the intention of earning money. So the following two scenarios are different:

1) I'm flying around for my own entertainment and happen to get a good picture of my neighbour's house. I give it to him and he later uses it to sell the property. As a thank you, he gives me £100 when the sale goes through.

2) My neighbour tells me he needs a photo of his house to sell it, and I take off, take the photo and give it to him. He gives me £100 for the trouble.

The point here is intention. The first is not illegal as an unlicensed pilot. You're not actively going out trying to generate money by flying, and the assumption is that on the whole your flying will reflect that (your back yard, the local park etc.). The second is illegal - I'm flying at someone else's request and the implication is that I will do so on a regular basis and in locations that are more likely to have risks (such as buildings and people) that should be considered.

My understanding is that the distinction about being a commercial operation is made as a way of distinguishing different patterns of flying. Hobbyists are still bound by the Drone Code (safe and considerate flying), but people who fly regularly, in a wider range of environments should have training, be insured and follow a safety plan. Technically, the CAA don't really care if you're making money or not (and let's face it, many drone pilots are not making a lot of money), they care about the type of flying you do.

To be honest, the 'camera for hire' business model seems unsustainable in the long run - for the same reason you don't need a license to carry a DSLR, drones have become a ubiquitous resource. We have to look at how professional photographers separate themselves from keen amateurs. Despite there being millions of cameras out there, and thousands of perfectly competent (or even talented) photographers, there are a smaller group of professional photographers who can command five, six figure fees for a photoshoot. Licensing is not going to stop people who want a cheap photo from going to 'black market' amateurs, and trying to compete against them is never going to work. The trick is to find ways to identify with the more rarefied groups of people who are seen as being "worth the cost" - either because they're reliable and hard working, or produce exceptional results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vernonda and YuKay
In the UK as I understand the application of the law, it is illegal to take off with the intention of earning money. So the following two scenarios are different:

1) I'm flying around for my own entertainment and happen to get a good picture of my neighbour's house. I give it to him and he later uses it to sell the property. As a thank you, he gives me £100 when the sale goes through.

2) My neighbour tells me he needs a photo of his house to sell it, and I take off, take the photo and give it to him. He gives me £100 for the trouble.

The point here is intention. The first is not illegal as an unlicensed pilot. You're not actively going out trying to generate money by flying, and the assumption is that on the whole your flying will reflect that (your back yard, the local park etc.). The second is illegal - I'm flying at someone else's request and the implication is that I will do so on a regular basis and in locations that are more likely to have risks (such as buildings and people) that should be considered...

Excellent and interesting post. So a logical line has been drawn - in the UK at least.

The laws/regulations are about safety and AFAIK they don't exist in order to safeguard the commercial interests of professional drone operators. As long as amateurs fly safely/within the law I doubt that they are at risk of litigation even if they do take off with the intention of making money from a shoot - unless they don't pay their taxes!

If there are laws/regulations in some jurisdictions which prevent an amateur from doing so, then I doubt they will last long - for the simple reason that they are unenforceable.

Of course, nor is there any guarantee that a professional drone operator is a better aerial photographer than an amateur one - albeit he might be a more experienced one.

OTOH, unqualified amateurs in the UK are prohibited from flying within 50m of any property or object which is not under their control and within 150m of any congested area so that's a huge market which is only open to professional operators.
 
...<snip>... Paying a friend or neighbor $10 or $20 as a 'thank you' for a photograph - or even giving him a box of vegetables - seems to be a gray area.
No it isn't. The law both in the U.K. and in the USA is very clear on this...it is seen as a commercial operation since money or a consideration has has been given.

The recipient didn't advertise for a drone photographer and nor did the drone operator advertise a service.
Not relevant. No matter how the two parties came into contact with each other if money or a consideration for the uas operation is given to the uas operator then it's still commercial in nature.

The recipient would never dream of paying more than a box of vegetables for the photo so the drone owner isn't taking business away from any licensed operator.
A box of vegetables is a consideration so that makes the flight commercial in nature. Further, doing a commercial flight for the small 'payment' of a box of vegetables is severely undercutting the competition unfairly.

Seems to me that no-one gains by reporting this as an unlicensed operation.

...<snip>...
An unauthorized pilot conducting commercial operations will not and cannot have the correct insurance in place.
 
An unauthorized pilot conducting commercial operations will not and cannot have the correct insurance in place.

I don't know what the "correct" insurance is but an amateur can certainly get up to £25m of liability cover quite cheaply, and most presumably would.


Given that an amateur flies safely and within the law and has insurance cover, who can stop him taking photographs for a fee? Which regulation would he be contravening?

I can understand why professional drone operators might not like it but I haven't yet found the regulations which prohibit it.
 
I don't know what the "correct" insurance is but an amateur can certainly get up to £25m of liability cover quite cheaply, and most presumably would.


Given that an amateur flies safely and within the law and has insurance cover, who can stop him taking photographs for a fee? Which regulation would he be contravening?

I can understand why professional drone operators might not like it but I haven't yet found the regulations which prohibit it.
In the U.K. a person who accepts money or consideration for doing a flight with a UAS must be fully insured to the CAA requirement EC785/2004. This is not hobby level insurance and can cost anything between £450 and over a £1000 per year (depending on the level of cover). Further, even if the CAA has granted a UAS pilot a PfCO, that PfCO does not become effective until the pilot has commercial insurance in place. Hobby level insurance for commercial flights is not acceptable to the CAA.

Note that standard EC785/2004 insurance will not cover a pilot for recreational flights just the same as hobby level insurance will not cover a pilot for commercial activities, so if a commercial pilot (in the U.K.) wishes to just have a bit of fun doing a recreational flight, and wants to be insured for it, then he will need both types of insurance.

I'm not sure what the requirements are in other parts of the world but I imagine that in the USA, at least, the requirements will be similar.
 
Given that an amateur flies safely and within the law and has insurance cover, who can stop him taking photographs for a fee? Which regulation would he be contravening?
He would be contravening the Air Navigation Order (2016) CAP393
 
He would be contravening the Air Navigation Order (2016) CAP393

Daft as I am, I hunted through this Order for a ray of enlightenment and I may have found it.

Chapter 1, Section 7 states:

"Meaning of “commercial operation”

7. For the purposes of this Order, “commercial operation” means any operation of an aircraft
other than for public transport—

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/765/article/7/made
(a) which is available to the public; or
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/765/article/7/made
(b) which, when not made available to the public, is performed under a contract between an
operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator,

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/765/article/7/made
in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration.

If I have understood this oddly worded definition correctly, 7(b) means that if the customer does have control over the operator then the flight is not deemed to be a commercial operation.

I don't understand the logic of it but it seems to be saying that I, without any license or accreditation, can charge my neighbour to take an aerial photograph of his house as long as my neighbour is with me and directs operations.

That seems odd as it could also apply to the owner of anything from a holiday island to water towers and would give the hobbyist much greater freedom to tout for business than has been suggested so far.
 
Daft as I am, I hunted through this Order for a ray of enlightenment and I may have found it.

Chapter 1, Section 7 states:

"Meaning of “commercial operation”

7. For the purposes of this Order, “commercial operation” means any operation of an aircraft
other than for public transport—
(a) which is available to the public; or
(b) which, when not made available to the public, is performed under a contract between an
operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator,
in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration.


If I have understood this oddly worded definition correctly, 7(b) means that if the customer does have control over the operator then the flight is not deemed to be a commercial operation.

I don't understand the logic of it but it seems to be saying that I, without any license or accreditation, can charge my neighbour to take an aerial photograph of his house as long as my neighbour is with me and directs operations.

That seems odd as it could also apply to the owner of anything from a holiday island to water towers and would give the hobbyist much greater freedom to tout for business than has been suggested so far.
The sections of the Air Navigation Order (2016) CAP393 relevant to sUAS operations are articles 94 and 95 and are seen as the 'Bible' to drone operators in the U.K. (Well, those that are aware of these articles anyway).
 
The sections of the Air Navigation Order (2016) CAP393 relevant to sUAS operations are articles 94 and 95 and are seen as the 'Bible' to drone operators in the U.K. (Well, those that are aware of these articles anyway).

Understood, but where 94 states that the person in charge "must not fly the aircraft for the purposes of commercial operations except…" that brings us back to the definition of commercial operations and my previous post quoting that definition.

I am not a lawyer nor a pilot but their definition seems to be phrased primarily to protect the privacy rights of non-participating property owners, although it's hard to tell and the wording looks intended to be confusing. As I read it, any hobbyist drone operator can be party to a contract for a legal aerial service so long as the customer is on hand to exert a measure of control.

(And if such contracted flights were not deemed to be commercial operations then the hobbyist presumably would not be required to have 'commercial' insurance in place.)

If there's a lawyer lurking, please opine - unless doing so would break your advocacy rules!
 
Understood, but where 94 states that the person in charge "must not fly the aircraft for the purposes of commercial operations except…" that brings us back to the definition of commercial operations and my previous post quoting that definition.

I am not a lawyer nor a pilot but their definition seems to be phrased primarily to protect the privacy rights of non-participating property owners, although it's hard to tell and the wording looks intended to be confusing. As I read it, any hobbyist drone operator can be party to a contract for a legal aerial service so long as the customer is on hand to exert a measure of control.

(And if such contracted flights were not deemed to be commercial operations then the hobbyist presumably would not be required to have 'commercial' insurance in place.)

If there's a lawyer lurking, please opine - unless doing so would break your advocacy rules!
Every commercial sUAS pilot in the U.K. is the 'Pilot In Command' (PIC) whilst he is flying his aircraft and operates his aircraft under a legally binding Operations Manual which is approved by the CAA. The aircraft must be flown in accordance with the detail of that Operations Manual. This is the law.

The CAA will also see a hobby pilot as the 'Pilot In Command' (PIC) while he is flying his aircraft too, and will hold him legally responsible should he contravene any laws or have a 'Reportable Occurrence' even though he does not have an approved Operations Manual.

Since the UAS pilot, whether Commercial or Hobby, is the Pilot In Command (and will be held to account should anything go wrong) then no-one can have control over him for the duration of the flight other than the relevant agencies (The CAA or Police for example) simply because he is the Pilot In Command...he is in command. A client will be able to direct him and advise him on where to take pictures or video footage but he does not and cannot have any real control over the PIC. The PIC always has the last say since it is the PIC that will be up in front of a judge if any law has been broken.

Therefore, if a hobby pilot thinks that he can take picture or video for any kind of valuable consideration relying on your previous quote arguing that he can do so legally, then he is sadly mistaken.

The Air Navigation Order is a complicated read and I agree that parts of it could be better worded. The bottom line is that flying for money or other consideration is illegal for a hobby pilot.
 
Last edited:
…Since the UAS pilot, whether Commercial or Hobby, is the Pilot In Command (and will be held to account should anything go wrong) then no-one can have control over him for the duration of the flight other than the relevant agencies (The CAA or Police for example) simply because he is the Pilot In Command...he is in command. A client will be able to direct him and advise him on where to take pictures or video footage but he does not and cannot have any control over the PIC. The PIC always has the last say since it is the PIC that will be up in front of a judge if any law has been broken.

However the CAA definition at 7(b) doesn't say that the customer has to be in command of the drone - only that he must have some (unspecified) degree of control over the operator. That would be easy to comply with if that is indeed the correct interpretation (and I'm struggling to find any other).

Therefore, if a hobby pilot chooses to do a commercial operation relying on your previous quote arguing that he can do so legally, then he is sadly mistaken.

If he actually reads the CAA regulations, he might reasonably come to a different and defensible conclusion. I guess most don't read the minutiae of the regulations and instead take advice from forums, third party websites and other pilots (who may not have read them properly either - or maybe knowingly misrepresent them).

The Air Navigation Order is a complicated read and I agree that parts of it could be better worded. The bottom line is that flying for money or other consideration is illegal for a hobby pilot.

I appreciate that this is the conventional wisdom but it doesn't seem to be fully supported by the actual text of the Order.
 
However the CAA definition at 7(b) doesn't say that the customer has to be in command of the drone - only that he must have some (unspecified) degree of control over the operator. That would be easy to comply with if that is indeed the correct interpretation (and I'm struggling to find any other).
No it doesn't.

7B says
(b) which, when not made available to the public, is performed under a contract between an
operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator,


It says nothing about having control over the operator. Is says that he has no control over the operator.

As I've previously explained, a customer cannot have control over the operator since the operator is deemed as the Pilot In Command.

I reiterate, and I will not respond to further dialog on this subject in this thread, a hobby pilot in the U.K. accepting money or consideration in respect of his uas flying activities will do so in contravention of the CAA Air Navigation Order (2016) CAP 393 and if such a pilot is identified by me as posing an adverse effect on my business, then I will bring that pilot to the attention of the relevant authorities.
 
No it doesn't.

7B says
(b) which, when not made available to the public, is performed under a contract between an
operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator,


It says nothing about having control over the operator. Is says that he has no control over the operator.

As I've previously explained, a customer cannot have control over the operator since the operator is deemed as the Pilot In Command.

I reiterate, and I will not respond to further dialog on this subject in this thread, a hobby pilot in the U.K. accepting money or consideration in respect of his uas flying activities will do so in contravention of the CAA Air Navigation Order (2016) CAP 393 and if such a pilot is identified by me as posing an adverse effect on my business, then I will bring that pilot to the attention of the relevant authorities.

With respect, it doesn't say that. You have reproduced only part of 7(b).

To paraphrase the full text (quoted in my 1.13am post), a commercial operation is one which is either available to the public or otherwise is the result of a contract where the customer has no control over the operator, and for which payment has been received.

While I'm not certain what this means, I think it is fundamental to the whole discussion since most of the other regulations quoted relate directly or indirectly to this definition. It certainly reads as though there is scope for hobbyists to legitimately carry out aerial contracts when under some degree of on-site supervision by the customer without re-classifying themselves as commercial operators.

The more I look at the regulations, they are there to protect people and property - not to protect the livelihood of commercial operators. Indeed, I'm sure that the CAA has no remit to prevent hobbyists selling their service. But by restricting (for safety reasons) the flying and over-flying opportunities available by default to hobbyists, they are effectively limiting - but not eliminating - the scope of commercial work they can legally undertake.
 
YuKay.
A customer cannot have control over the pilot (in the sense that you are arguing) since the pilot is in command of the flight.

For the very last time, a hobby pilot would be contravening the law if he accepted money or valuable consideration for his work, no matter how much you nit-picked CAP393.

The law is crystal clear and unambiguous to me. Keep in mind that I have a Remote Pilots Certificate earned through classroom study of the U.K. law pertaining to UAS operations and assessed by a formal exam, as well as having my flight operations assessed by a CAA accredited assessor. I have written my own Operations Manual that is 50 pages long which has been approved by the CAA. I hold a PfCO. Take it from me, a hobby flier can't fly for money. Please stop trying to justify taking money for a flight operation by a hobby flier (you). Your argument is flawed and you would most certainly be breaking the law if you flew for money.
 
Of course a customer can exert control over the pilot he is paying. He can tell him where and when to fly, when to stop, what to photograph, etc. 7(b) doesn't say that that the customer needs to have total control over the operator: only that he should not have zero control. Therefore any measure of control means that the pilot need not be classified as a commercial operator.

If you are not familiar with this definition, perhaps it is new?
 
Of course a customer can exert control over the pilot he is paying. He can tell him where and when to fly, when to stop, what to photograph, etc. 7(b) doesn't say that that the customer needs to have total control over the operator: only that he should not have zero control. Therefore any measure of control means that the pilot need not be classified as a commercial operator.

If you are not familiar with this definition, perhaps it is new?

That approach was tried by the military during the operation of drones in a war time environment being operated by civilians. The military "Mission Commander" laid claim to being the Pilot in Command and ordering civilian contractors to perform certain duties that turned them into "combatants" under international law. It worked out that civilian operators could be tried in an international court for "war crimes" that might have been committed if they complied with the orders of the Mission Commander. By complying with those orders, as the legal pilots in command, they opened themselves up for war crimes prosecution. The only legal means for them to remain a non combatant was to refuse the order and/or remove themselves from the operational environment and command and transfer control of the aircraft in the current operational environment to military personnel. A shorter version of all that is that anyone manipulating the controls of an aircraft is the PIC, with very few exceptions, and all of those have a flight instructor or another qualified pilot present to assume command of the aircraft during a flight emergency. As an example, someone flying a helicopter on a movie set would be taking orders from the movie director. The director is in no way the PIC as only the PIC is capable of establishing that such directions are safe to execute and that the aircraft is capable of such execution, which in turn allows the person at the controls to accept or reject the director's orders. An event that set that into history killed the actor Vic Morrow and several others. The person at the controls is PIC.

In the U.S. there is FAR 91.3 that specifically states the Pilot in Command is the sole authority for determining the outcome of a flight, and is authorized to exercise any and all steps needed to assure the safe outcome of a flight, including rejecting instructions from ATC or any other source if the PIC deems it necessary. In full scale aviation where fatal accidents have occurred where two pilots were at the controls great effort has been expended during autopsies to establish which pilot was on the controls at the time of the crash to establish exactly who was the pilot in command at the moment of impact. Aviation law is very clear that unless it is an instructional flight where a flight instructor is providing instruction, or when the flight is being conducted in VFR conditions with the person manipulating the controls using a visual restriction device under the supervision of a safety pilot not visually restricted, the person handling the controls is the PIC. The PIC makes every decision relevant to the operation of the aircraft, not anyone else, ever. In the situation previously described where a client is telling the flight operator what to do, the client is an advisor, not PIC. The person flying the aircraft maintains ultimate and absolute authority over the aircraft at all times.

As for hobby insurance, it's quite clear when people read the fine print of their hobby policies that the moment consideration is obtained from the flight it becomes a commercial application and hobby coverage will be terminated. I'm not a lawyer but I know full well insurance policies are written by lawyers and they make it a point to cross all the "T's" and dot all the "I's" where money is concerned.

What I am seeing as this thread progresses is another business person trying to avoid obtaining a commercial license while also trying to use drones to promote his professional interests, and in the process reaching for any minutiae in legal documentation that might provide him/her the means to operate commercially without first becoming a licensed professional. Point blank, if someone takes their clients out to look at cell towers using a drone they are acting as an aviation professional. The use of the drone is flagrantly commercial in intent. At minimum they are using a drone to advertise their business, clearly a commercial application, and attempting to thwart the law to avoid meeting appropriate licensing requirements. Some might call it seeking a professional advantage. To me such an act does not reflect well on the business person's decision making as the cost of obtaining a commercial license is far less than the cost of a decent camera drone, and the fines, or damage awards after an incident, far outweigh both the cost of the drone and obtaining a license. It would not be surprising to see a company's liability carrier cancel policy coverage if they learned their insured was operating drones illegally. Some commercial carriers have already made it very clear they won't even cover those operating them legally as they don't provide coverage for aviation incidents of any kind.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: FlushVision
Of course a customer can exert control over the pilot he is paying. He can tell him where and when to fly, when to stop, what to photograph, etc. 7(b) doesn't say that that the customer needs to have total control over the operator: only that he should not have zero control. Therefore any measure of control means that the pilot need not be classified as a commercial operator.

If you are not familiar with this definition, perhaps it is new?
@YuKay
I think you are trying to hard to read between the lines to prove your point rather than the simplicity of the rule. Once you accept money for your services "from anyone" you you must be certified controlled or not,even from a friend. :eek::rolleyes:o_O:confused:
 

New Posts

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
20,977
Messages
241,829
Members
27,382
Latest member
Sierrarhodesss