In a munchkin tone....
Follow the Yellow Brick Road, follow, follow, Follow the Yellow.......
“ We don’t want no smart batteries”!!
- Thread starter Flying eyeball
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Follow the Yellow Brick Road, follow, follow, Follow the Yellow.......
Recently picked up a new PowerVision PowerEgg, to use as a shelf conversation piece... and speculated collector’s piece. Laugh now... when I sell this baby 20 years for my finale retirement funds! Urrg!
Back to subject, it too contains a smart battery. And actually for the size and so-called smart, it wasn’t excessively high... over priced, sure... any 5-7k mah over $50~75 is over priced to me. It was $149 Retail for 6400mah and it’s reversible in that it can be inserted Lf or Rr... dual contacts.
And it Looks really cool sitting in it’s blue LED haze light base stand. The kids love watching it unfold, and the 4K camera is actually very good.
Back to subject, it too contains a smart battery. And actually for the size and so-called smart, it wasn’t excessively high... over priced, sure... any 5-7k mah over $50~75 is over priced to me. It was $149 Retail for 6400mah and it’s reversible in that it can be inserted Lf or Rr... dual contacts.
And it Looks really cool sitting in it’s blue LED haze light base stand. The kids love watching it unfold, and the 4K camera is actually very good.
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Your @ss is too fat to sit on a drone !……………………………… totally kidding mate ,I just couldn’t resist .
PatR
Premium Pilot
No you don’t. The chief engineer died in one of their planes when it crashed.
They were low cost simplistic designs, loose in movable parts, like our 45 military version... but were uniquely consistent in tight breach lockup. We’ed tighten our designs but required field cleanings to remain operational. The SKS or AK could be hidden in a ice muddy creek for days and called into duty. That test carries over to their new AK15 (7.62) & AK12 (5.45) too; USA began similar specs in last decade.
Smart Batteries do a lot more than support a lazy user, although they do that extremely well. Also for the busy Fleet, SAR outfits managing 100’s paks or small busy shops adopt & depend on the self managed modes not via laziness but known consistentcy for inventory. In addition they provide data logs to meet increasing Govt demands of records: dates charged, number of cycles, voltages, and newer versions providing amps drawn, power charts, auto detect imbalance & self initiate cell balance, set days before storage mode initiated and discharges battery down to long term storage voltage, pair info, platform inserted logs, start & run temps, and more values or data collection in discussion.
Can this be performed manually, Sure it Can... but is it, consistently? I’ve been known to store a spent or fully charged LiPo pak due to hast to pack up and not getting back to it as intended; lazy or forgetfulness... but it’s probably more common than admitted. Soon as with commercial trucks and aircraft, manually entered data collection won’t be accepted or frowned upon as possible concealment of true data. System collection will be required soon.
OP thread displayed a disadvantage of a smart incident. Even on standard LiPo, Voltage check isn’t accurate on a partially discharged battery without a amp draw test to drain surface charge voltage after storage. I’m not sure, but that incident sounds like the intermediate FW version of the TB50/55 that was problematic and later corrected. The RTH is % or voltage triggered, and if that’s set with enough reserve it’ll make it home. You can always override the safe reserve values and enter your own and if set to 1%... I doubt it’ll make it home. I’ve personally not experienced a partially charged or storage mode that’s 1-2 days into dropping charge fail on a flight, but I have had short flights before RTH warnings pop up. At the same time, I can override warnings on my H to the point of failure too.
Part of proper battery health is to fully charge prior to flight for any LiPo pak, unless you’re intentially flying them to get near storage values.
Cost, can’t agree more... no argument! It shouldn’t cost what they charge and I’d agree, the consumer is being taken avantage of for the profit. The TB55 is $370 and needs to be used in mated pairs so that’s $740 for roughly 25 min flight. The TB48S is $200 and needs to be a 6-pak, so that’s $1200 for roughly 35 min flight for heavy lifter. Anyway it’s calculated, it’s grossly excessive, Figure a SAR event that requires minimum 4 sets to maintain operations & battery health. Even getting at 50% discount, it’s still grossly excessive. Compare that to tandem Tattu 12,000-20,000 LiPo paks at $300 per, $600 total... half the cost for heavy lifter.
PatR
Premium Pilot
We saw a similar elevated price structure with factory 920 batteries. Although not a “smart” design the battery dimensions were/are unique, established by Yuneec to fit to a specific aircraft configuration. Because the batteries were controlled by the aircraft manufacturer there were no other brands to allow for competitive pricing.
So Yuneec priced a low C count, 6S battery “kit” at $279.99 for a pair of batteries. As the aircraft required 3 batteries to obtain maximum flight time the user had to purchase two sets of batteries, or 4 batteries, for $559.98, plus shipping and taxes where required. As we have found, that aircraft can obtain equal or better flight time using only a pair of standard dimension 6S after market batteries at a total cost of only $140.00, or $70.00 each, or a single high capacity 6S battery at a cost of roughly $120.00.
I can name one system manufacturer with numerous government contracts that designs their systems for battery commonality. Regardless of the model aircraft they all use the same battery type, only the quantity of batteries or battery capacity changes for the model type. They do that to reduce manufacturing cost, minimize power supply costs, and simplify battery maintenance. Aerospace employs “standard” batteries that can be assembled to “2P, 3P,or 4P” configurations to obtain far greater capacities for much larger multirotor designs. Doing that allows 8S and 12S batteries to meet U.N. Shipping standards and again standardizes battery inventories while promoting competitive pricing.
FreeFly used to use standard batteries but switched to proprietary shell batteries that, like Yuneec and DJI, they can price however they want.
Our government is not mandating “smart” batteries be employed. People can “drink the Kool Aid” and allow themselves to believe well designed marketing strategies intended to convince customers paying 3 to 5 times higher pricing for a battery benefits them if they want. That stuff is right up there with advertising a 3, 5, or 7 kilometer system range being provided to assure better C2C and video links within LOS range.
So Yuneec priced a low C count, 6S battery “kit” at $279.99 for a pair of batteries. As the aircraft required 3 batteries to obtain maximum flight time the user had to purchase two sets of batteries, or 4 batteries, for $559.98, plus shipping and taxes where required. As we have found, that aircraft can obtain equal or better flight time using only a pair of standard dimension 6S after market batteries at a total cost of only $140.00, or $70.00 each, or a single high capacity 6S battery at a cost of roughly $120.00.
I can name one system manufacturer with numerous government contracts that designs their systems for battery commonality. Regardless of the model aircraft they all use the same battery type, only the quantity of batteries or battery capacity changes for the model type. They do that to reduce manufacturing cost, minimize power supply costs, and simplify battery maintenance. Aerospace employs “standard” batteries that can be assembled to “2P, 3P,or 4P” configurations to obtain far greater capacities for much larger multirotor designs. Doing that allows 8S and 12S batteries to meet U.N. Shipping standards and again standardizes battery inventories while promoting competitive pricing.
FreeFly used to use standard batteries but switched to proprietary shell batteries that, like Yuneec and DJI, they can price however they want.
Our government is not mandating “smart” batteries be employed. People can “drink the Kool Aid” and allow themselves to believe well designed marketing strategies intended to convince customers paying 3 to 5 times higher pricing for a battery benefits them if they want. That stuff is right up there with advertising a 3, 5, or 7 kilometer system range being provided to assure better C2C and video links within LOS range.
Phaedrus
Premium Pilot
Even some hobby RC companies have done this. Not uncommon to have a hobby RC transmitter that requires a specific case format forcing you to use the manufacturer's packs. Which are usually considerably over priced.
PatR
Premium Pilot
Like anything else that has but a single manufacturer or distributor, those in need of that product or service are hostages of the desired price structure. Medical drug companies are another example of this.
Better to not place ourselves in situations where our purchasing choices are eliminated. That changes pricing policies from “whatever the market will bear” to one of “whatever we want them to pay”. Discerning people can see the trap laid out for them if they are being restricted to a single supplier of anything.
Better to not place ourselves in situations where our purchasing choices are eliminated. That changes pricing policies from “whatever the market will bear” to one of “whatever we want them to pay”. Discerning people can see the trap laid out for them if they are being restricted to a single supplier of anything.
PatR
Premium Pilot
DCJ,
You can obtain that colored light haze under your car if you want to be creative. Just hang a few strategically placed colored 12v LED’s under it. You’ll only be out about $10.00 and a little installation time. [emoji4]
You can obtain that colored light haze under your car if you want to be creative. Just hang a few strategically placed colored 12v LED’s under it. You’ll only be out about $10.00 and a little installation time. [emoji4]
Ya, but my Jeep doesn't have that sexy Egg shape in Glossy Apple White, won't sit on my office desk and certainly doesn't unfold from a transformer egg into "Mighty Egg" that can fly. The kids aren't impressed with my 'Ole Jeep, personally don't know why, it's cute too!
I'll tell ya, poke fun now... but when I get a 100x-1000x return, on my collectable Egg... ya, I can see it now! Even using 3rd party retro remake smart batteries too!
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Totally acknowledge they currently are not requiring smart batteries. But we as a UAV industry are developing apps & tools that collect and manage logs. Which will eventually open up new possibilities to which Govt can reasonably expect in data collection.
Jump forward in not too distance future... where we 'Ole Farts are still walking on topsoil. Smart batteries are version 3, and data collection has advanced. Somewhere in that timeframe, proof of flight and condition of power source will be required if incident or possibly even uploaded to user associated acct at conclusion of flight session.
It'll get here as certain as Unleaded fuel was mandated, LP tank value version 2, Seat belt connection within logs, etc. Hanging onto the "old" will go so far, but it'll happen... what incentive do they have not to collect, our word of innocence of incidence won't provide much.
Medical industry didn't mandate dictation until they (Doctors support staff) developed easier ways to record their patient data for their own reference, that later evolved to mandated, automated records and manual records discouraged.
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PatR
Premium Pilot
I’ll argue dictation happened because nobody could read their hand writing
Think about this for a moment. Just how advanced does an autopilot sensor suite need to be to sense and record every parameter associated with the system from power up to power down? We both know such data tracking has been in play in many things, including UAV’s for a ling time. Every version of Ardupilot, Pixhawk, Mikrokopter, and Vector have done this from the beginning. Some even transmit that data real time to external locations with the addition of some small and light weight equipment. I won’t mention any military UAV’s by name but common practice, even among all electric systems, is collecting and storing many hundreds of data points to provide a means to replay and dissect a flight from start to finish while providing data needed to expand or improve system performance. Many transmit that data to a ground station in real time as well. Without any reservations I say their data collection is vastly more extensive and complete, providing more critical info than any smart battery ever will.
IMO, the purpose of a smart battery is not at all to better serve the customer, but a means to increase profitability and expand available profit centers with a long term revenue stream. Anything that can be sold using a statement it will make things easier for the consumer will employ similar language in the advertising. The smart outfits will also say it makes it safer, and apparently people will give up anything to expand their perception of safety.
Similar applies to health benefits. Using kale as an example, they couldn’t give the stuff away because it tastes like chit until somebody said it provided wonderful health benefits. It still tastes like chit and nobody is extending their life span because they eat it, but by golly farmers are now making money from something they couldn’t before.
Think about this for a moment. Just how advanced does an autopilot sensor suite need to be to sense and record every parameter associated with the system from power up to power down? We both know such data tracking has been in play in many things, including UAV’s for a ling time. Every version of Ardupilot, Pixhawk, Mikrokopter, and Vector have done this from the beginning. Some even transmit that data real time to external locations with the addition of some small and light weight equipment. I won’t mention any military UAV’s by name but common practice, even among all electric systems, is collecting and storing many hundreds of data points to provide a means to replay and dissect a flight from start to finish while providing data needed to expand or improve system performance. Many transmit that data to a ground station in real time as well. Without any reservations I say their data collection is vastly more extensive and complete, providing more critical info than any smart battery ever will.
IMO, the purpose of a smart battery is not at all to better serve the customer, but a means to increase profitability and expand available profit centers with a long term revenue stream. Anything that can be sold using a statement it will make things easier for the consumer will employ similar language in the advertising. The smart outfits will also say it makes it safer, and apparently people will give up anything to expand their perception of safety.
Similar applies to health benefits. Using kale as an example, they couldn’t give the stuff away because it tastes like chit until somebody said it provided wonderful health benefits. It still tastes like chit and nobody is extending their life span because they eat it, but by golly farmers are now making money from something they couldn’t before.
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LoL, still chuckling on the Kale. Take it you don't care for it eh... does the Wife insist ya eat it!
Ya know there are at least 3 different variations of Kale... Dark and ??? (Brain Fart) are the other two... you should try Dark blended with Red cabbage... Umm Ummm! Bests my annual treat of Borscht my darling Ukrainian Wife used to prepare. Now that beats Kale!!
The funny thing about Kale is in the MidWest, it's a barnyard wild weed. All those years spraying it, could have taken it to Farmers Market for the Health Seakers.
Fully agree on the multitude of parameters that are... would be easily collected by onboard systems. Could easily add several battery unique variables too, without much work since onboard connected electronics see the same values as on the battery side. Similar to full scale that would be a step in right direction for data collection. I'd assume we'll see some level of that adaption too... in near future.
On a seperate level, more specific to the battery. The number of charges, values of charge, number of flights in possible multiple platforms, detection of cell imbalance & auto balance routine, setting number of days idle before initiating a discharge drop to storage level listing the more prominante ones. I don't see how platform electronics can initiate a discharge to storage level after 10 days shelf time elapsed.
Another variable is selling battery, or selling the platform seperatly, history should travel with battery.
I personally don't understand the defiance over a onboard electronics performing a few tasks or monitoring. Personally I feel smart batteries should exert no control, that should be Operator only. Is the Cost factor the primary resistance? On a positive side, the Tattu Plus batteries are their "smart" large lipo paks... 10,000 22,000, etc. They perform some of the above and their Plus (smart) batteries are exactly the same cost as their standard of equal size.
There remains a few separate functions between platform electronics and battery. I may be not seeing the whole picture, but even auto manufacturers of eCars use smart batteries when they have dozens of dedicated computers on-board for an array of operations. If they can save 1 cent per car, they'll do it so there must be value with smart batteries.
But back to cost, I'd agree it's a huge profit. The IC board and associated FW & Development shouldn't exceed $25 per battery in my opinion. The smart battey needs 3rd party involvement. That would cut price at least in half, which it'll be much closer to standard lipo's.
Ya know there are at least 3 different variations of Kale... Dark and ??? (Brain Fart) are the other two... you should try Dark blended with Red cabbage... Umm Ummm! Bests my annual treat of Borscht my darling Ukrainian Wife used to prepare. Now that beats Kale!!
The funny thing about Kale is in the MidWest, it's a barnyard wild weed. All those years spraying it, could have taken it to Farmers Market for the Health Seakers.
Fully agree on the multitude of parameters that are... would be easily collected by onboard systems. Could easily add several battery unique variables too, without much work since onboard connected electronics see the same values as on the battery side. Similar to full scale that would be a step in right direction for data collection. I'd assume we'll see some level of that adaption too... in near future.
On a seperate level, more specific to the battery. The number of charges, values of charge, number of flights in possible multiple platforms, detection of cell imbalance & auto balance routine, setting number of days idle before initiating a discharge drop to storage level listing the more prominante ones. I don't see how platform electronics can initiate a discharge to storage level after 10 days shelf time elapsed.
Another variable is selling battery, or selling the platform seperatly, history should travel with battery.
I personally don't understand the defiance over a onboard electronics performing a few tasks or monitoring. Personally I feel smart batteries should exert no control, that should be Operator only. Is the Cost factor the primary resistance? On a positive side, the Tattu Plus batteries are their "smart" large lipo paks... 10,000 22,000, etc. They perform some of the above and their Plus (smart) batteries are exactly the same cost as their standard of equal size.
There remains a few separate functions between platform electronics and battery. I may be not seeing the whole picture, but even auto manufacturers of eCars use smart batteries when they have dozens of dedicated computers on-board for an array of operations. If they can save 1 cent per car, they'll do it so there must be value with smart batteries.
But back to cost, I'd agree it's a huge profit. The IC board and associated FW & Development shouldn't exceed $25 per battery in my opinion. The smart battey needs 3rd party involvement. That would cut price at least in half, which it'll be much closer to standard lipo's.
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Phaedrus
Premium Pilot
Exactly
And I like kale, braised with lots of BACON!!!! Then it is great. Everything is better with bacon!
Ummm Bacon, but my Doc tells me limit the bacon. So basically a Spinach substitute, Hot Bacon Kale salad.
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