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Drone vs. Aircraft

Did you even take the time to read the article I linked? I say most likely not because it doesn't fit your narrative. That article has REAL #'s that support the test video. Do you honestly think that no small General Aviation aircraft travel @ 200mph? What happens when an aircraft heavier than a Phantom is used for such testing? The Inspire 2 uses dual batteries and the Matrice 600 hauls 6 batteries and can carry a 10lb camera payload. If they used that as a test subject would you also refute the results?

As a General Aviation pilot and as a RPIC with over 4 decades of sUAS experience I am on the side of SAFETY. Yes I support more drone restrictions especially for those who feel like their "hobby/toy" sUAS can't damage a big bad manned aircraft in any way. If we, as a group, could police ourselves and prevent sUAS to manned aircraft incursions I would be all for that but we CAN'T! Too many people think the laws shouldn't apply to them (insert any number of various reasons in this section) or feel like their sUAS can't damage a manned aircraft so the danger isn't feasible. WRONG!

Ok let's skip the foam/Space Shuttle scenario (which is still relevant even though you don't want to admit that) and go to the Phantom4 vs UH-60 Black Hawk Helo. Neither were traveling at "unrealistic" speeds yet when the sUAS impacted the Rotor Blades it did enough damage to warrant total blade replacements (approx $250K) and thank goodness the engine's intake grid (debris guard) kept the fragments from entering into the engine and doing more damage. Now before you go off and say, "It just scratched them and they were replaced as an extreme precaution" understand this is a COMBAT built aircraft. Imagine if the same collision occurred on a site seeing helo..... What about a Robinson R22 or even a Mosquito series of helicopters?

Just because you insist on living with your head in the sand and in a perpetual state of denial doesn't change FACTS in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

You’re clearly confused on what facts are. Sorry bub. There is nothing else to talk about here. Try using your brain next time before you come at someone majoring in Drone Technology at a major university. If you think you’re smarter than DJI, their lawyers and PR firm, perhaps you should become their lawyer seeing as your knowledge is far superior than industry leaders and blatant science? [emoji38] The fact of the matter is THAT VIDEO was over exaggeration as stated by DJI who rebutted the video. If you want to argue facts go ahead...no one in the SUaS program on my campus would take your side, in fact I read out your reply and everyone including our instructor is laughing at you! Please try harder next time. Good day.
 
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You’re clearly confused on what facts are. Sorry bub. There is nothing else to talk about here. Try using your brain next time before you come at someone majoring in Drone Technology at a major university. If you think you’re smarter than DJI, their lawyers and PR firm, perhaps you should become their lawyer seeing as your knowledge is far superior than industry leaders and blatant science? [emoji38]


Please let me apologize as I didn't know I was debating with a STUDENT in Drone Tech. I assume my 4 decades of REAL LIFE sUAS experience and 2 decades of Manned Aircraft experience are trumped by your studies. I also guess my years teaching sUAS (I was probably teaching this before you was taking your first breath) in the private and public sector don't really add any credibility either. I do apologize for my extreme ignorance on the subject matter.

DJI's points have already been debunked several times (again did you even read the article linked or is that too much trouble?). What about the very well stated #'s by @PatR in a couple of posts before this one?

Oh but let's not bother with those facts since they don't fit your narrative. I understand where you're coming from it just doesn't work out that way in the real world. No hard feelings we've all been on the wrong side of facts before. It's all good... bub.
 
You’re clearly confused on what facts are. Sorry bub. There is nothing else to talk about here. Try using your brain next time before you come at someone majoring in Drone Technology at a major university. If you think you’re smarter than DJI, their lawyers and PR firm, perhaps you should become their lawyer seeing as your knowledge is far superior than industry leaders and blatant science? [emoji38] The fact of the matter is THAT VIDEO was over exaggeration as stated by DJI who rebutted the video. If you want to argue facts go ahead...no one in the SUaS program on my campus would take your side, in fact I read out your reply and everyone including our instructor is laughing at you! Please try harder next time. Good day.

giphy33.gif

Very, very immature fj.
You're just a kid and you think you know it all already? Now that's something to laugh about.

Of course you're liberal college isn't going to take our side, you've been socialized!
I expect liberal instructors to laugh, that's why they don't have real jobs.
 
Big Al,

I just explained my side with sobering numbers and factual statements. And you come back with a debate about comparing a shuttle moving thousands of miles per hour to a cheap airplane leading edge? It’s evident you want more drone restrictions so keep it up with that attitude you have. People who despise drones are lapping this video up and loving it and it’s apparent you’re on their side or you wouldn’t drink the Kool Aide. Also, you don’t speak for everyone so what’s with the “We”!? Stand up by yourself next time. Take care. [emoji106]
Check out the Mooney M20M TLS released 29 years ago. Cruise speed over 170 knots (196 mph) at 5000 ft. They can fly faster than that. Or, check out the Mooney M20TN Acclaim released 12 years ago that can fly much faster. The Phantom 2 max. speed rating (per DJI) is over 33 mph. What's unrealistic about these closing speeds?
 
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Cruise speed in a Moody is 140-160Kts, the test parameters were for 238mph again in no shape or form would this impact shown be realistic making it virtually IMPOSSIBLE for these two aircraft to meet midair and this be the result.

Let's just take this one single point and dig into it a bit:

*Mooney 201’s max speed, or Vne, is 201mph (see the correlation with the name and the speed?)
*Mooney 232’s Vne is 232mph (again see the link to name and speed?)

Ok let's take a conservative # for the M201 of 201mph. Let's say the sUAS was traveling 38mph (My Inspire can do about 50% more than that but let's go back to the Phantom which is capable of that speed) that would give us an impact speed (combined speed) of 239mph which is a pinch faster than the test speed. Maybe they should have used a slower sUAS to make you feel better about the test results.

What happens if you use a faster plane and/or faster sUAS? What about a slightly heavier sUAS in the test? I'm no physicist but I would guestimate that the speeds would be higher and the damage potential higher. I think there's a formula somewhere to states something like that SMH.

The #'s don't lie and I can't fathom how you think that a Mooney aircraft and an sUAS could never collide with a combined speed of 238mph.
 
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If Floridajames bothered to research a few Pilot Operator Handbook for different models of general aviation aircraft he might learn how his myopia works.

He might also consider that people that helped develop collegiate drone educational programs might have a more rounded background in both drone and full scale flight principles.

The wing, drone, and speeds used in the test are all well within the realm of normal, day to day flight operations. He also might consider DJI’s lawyer was an esteemed aviation attorney before being put on DJI payroll and is well versed in airplane incident facts and figures. He might also consider his boss saw that video and might of said something to the effect of “I don’t like this, write something right now to mitigate it. That’s an order.” That lawyer is not independent counsel, he’s a DJI employee.

He might also contemplate the affects of a common sized drone flown at full speed impacting the airframe structure of a Piper J3 Cub or Taylorcraft tooling along at a fire breathing 60-70mph. Two very common general aviation aircraft having wood framework and fabric covered wings. For them the results would be worse than depicted in the video. Heaven forbid thinking about the results of even a drone descending straight down into an open cockpit G.A. aircraft. Not a “most likely” scenario but one certainly within reasonable possibility.

BTW, a good engineer should be looking beyond the previously established obvious. If they aren’t they aren’t performing any engineering, they are only reciting text book info obtained from someone that had been there before them.
 
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Hmmmmm I guess that’s why we didn’t need a 107 for the balsa wood gliders we used to throw as kids :)
 
If Floridajames bothered to research a few Pilot Operator Handbook for different models of general aviation aircraft he might learn how his myopia works.

He might also consider that people that helped develop collegiate drone educational programs might have a more rounded background in both drone and full scale flight principles.

The wing, drone, and speeds used in the test are all well within the realm of normal, day to day flight operations. He also might consider DJI’s lawyer was an esteemed aviation attorney before being put on DJI payroll and is well versed in airplane incident facts and figures. He might also consider his boss saw that video and might of said something to the effect of “I don’t like this, write something right now to mitigate it. That’s an order.” That lawyer is not independent counsel, he’s a DJI employee.

He might also contemplate the affects of a common sized drone flown at full speed impacting the airframe structure of a Piper J3 Cub or Taylorcraft tooling along at a fire breathing 60-70mph. Two very common general aviation aircraft having wood framework and fabric covered wings. For them the results would be worse than depicted in the video. Heaven forbid thinking about the results of even a drone descending straight down into an open cockpit G.A. aircraft. Not a “most likely” scenario but one certainly within reasonable possibility.

BTW, a good engineer should be looking beyond the previously established obvious. If they aren’t they aren’t performing any engineering, they are only reciting text book info obtained from someone that had been there before them.

I’ll just leave this here... “Unbalanced, agenda-driven research does substantial harm to our industry and to our company. Policymakers at all levels of government have responded to sensational media coverage by proposing and enacting new restrictions on drone ownership and use. These limitations prevent people and businesses from using drones safely for beneficial purposes, such as performing hazardous inspections or finding missing people. At least 195 people around the world have been rescued from peril by drones, many of them saved by small drones such as DJI Phantoms. By misleading the public and promoting fear about drones, you are undermining their benefits and encouraging restrictions on their lifesaving uses.” - Brendan M. Schulman
DJI Vice President of Policy & Legal Affairs
 
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I’ll just leave this here... “Unbalanced, agenda-driven research does substantial harm to our industry and to our company. Policymakers at all levels of government have responded to sensational media coverage by proposing and enacting new restrictions on drone ownership and use. These limitations prevent people and businesses from using drones safely for beneficial purposes, such as performing hazardous inspections or finding missing people. At least 195 people around the world have been rescued from peril by drones, many of them saved by small drones such as DJI Phantoms. By misleading the public and promoting fear about drones, you are undermining their benefits and encouraging restrictions on their lifesaving uses.” - Brendan M. Schulman
DJI Vice President of Policy & Legal Affairs

Don't forget, whenever you post any comments on any social media, it's fair game for employers to determine whether you are fit for their company.
 
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Perhaps an anecdotal story from the floors of a notable UAV manufacturer.

I came out of the field after an injury as was working as the senior propulsion R&D technician for a major UAV company. Because of my knowledge, aviation history, and work experience I was the primary SME responsible for propulsion related UAV incident reviews, developing reports for engineering to conduct final review, and because of my field history was often consulted on aero related issues. My salary level was considerably higher than the average company engineer.

We often accepted engineering interns to mentor that desired "hand's on" experience to assist furthering their education, and the last pair of applicants prior to my retirement were to be shared within the department. They were in front of a few of the engineers and techs one morning to determine where they might best fit and where they would prefer to work. Both were female, one was an advanced engineering student looking to (seriously) become a rocket scientist, having already obtained a couple of degrees, one in mechanical engineering. The other was an engineering student at Embry-Riddle specializing in UAV technology. She made it a point to let everyone know she was a "UAV pilot" and that's what she wanted to be. Neither knew of my background in either UAV's, full scale as a commercial pilot and instructor, or many years of giant scale fixed wing RC history. In discussion, the Embry-Riddle student was very quick to tell me why she found no potential benefit to spending any time in the Propulsion Lab, and there was no possibility the work performed there could ever benefit her career path. In fact, she pretty much viewed my position as a technician as being someone far below her station as an engineering student. She questioned why I believed she would expand her scope of UAV comprehension by becoming involved in any way in the Propulsion Lab.

When asked what kind of experience she had as a "UAV pilot" she responded she had about 10-15 hours of time operating a multirotor. She looked pretty dumb when informed, in front of others, that her perception of herself was pretty skewed and that she probably knew very little about what she wanted to be. When queried about how I might know of such things she was just a little surprised to learn that I was also a UAV pilot with several thousand hours as PIC across two military/commercial UAV's, had deployed 6 times to war time environments to set up and operate UAV's for the military, had taught UAV operations to military agencies at home, developed specific operations and maintenance practices critical to a particular type of UAV engine, developed a large performance increase for another UAV engine, was a subject matter expert, and full scale flight instructor. In the process she was informed that a critical part of becoming any kind of pilot was developing comprehension of everything that applies to the construction, maintenance, and operation of the aircraft, and those that best understood them were typically the ones that best operated them. This is especially relevant in commercial operations. Needless to say she failed to measure up and did not do all that well in the department she elected to attach to.
The one working towards becoming a rocket scientist turned out to have a very open mind and was willing to learn things with great diversity, which she stated after the term of her internship had benefitted her greatly.

The reason for sharing the above is that it was common for engineering students to know a heck of a lot less than they thought they did, and until they had actual experience with something everything they thought they "knew" wasn't "known" at all. With the exception of just a few, most of them lacked the passion that will cause them to excel.
 
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The only thing missing from @PatR statement would be:


>>>> MIC DROP <<<<

Very well stated and THANK YOU for your service! !
 
OK. Since I started this thread, let try to wrap it up.

- We all agree that putting human lives at unnecessary risk should be avoided.

- We all agree that we don't want ill-conceived, knee-jerk regulations overly restricting our UAS activities, commercial or recreational.

- Most of us agree that a fixed wing airplane or rotary wing aircraft that strikes a drone as large as a Phantom 2 or Yuneec Typhoon class drone has the potential to critically damage the aircraft.

- We all know that unsafe UAS operation will force our governments to place additional restrictions and enforcement burdens on our activities.

So....Let's make sure that we don't fly in airspace regularly used by manned aircraft. If we see unsafe UAS operations, we should speak to the individual. And, let's make sure that all UAS pilots know the regulations and risks before taking to the skys.
 
The only thing missing from @PatR statement would be:


>>>> MIC DROP
Very well stated and THANK YOU for your service! !

I thank you for yours sir! We should bear in mind my service was as a civilian contractor. Those that enlisted as military have given more than I did. A most distinguished family they have.
 
I thank you for yours sir! We should bear in mind my service was as a civilian contractor. Those that enlisted as military have given more than I did. A most distinguished family they have.

As former military I can attest to the value of civilian contractors. The Tech Rep we had from McDonnell Douglas at Lowry AFB back in the Eighties shared his knowledge and taught us well beyond what was required. It made me a better instructor and my students benefitted as well as myself. Thanks Vern and thank you PatR.
 
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Incredibly informative information by PatR, AH, Rubik, and Big Al. Thank you one and all.

Deeply appreciate Pat's considerable experience and wisdom here.

@ FloridaJames... wisdom begins only when your humility replaces your arrogance. Try learning from those whose years of experience are a multiple of years you have lived. Stop consorting with people who reinforce your beliefs and try walking with those who will challenge your preconceptions.

Not that we all haven't been kids at one point... we all were, but c'mon kid, grow up. There are dyed in the wool experts here sharing their knowledge yet you insist on dismissing it.

Mmmm, ok.
 
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