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H520 and Leica

update on tunas software. unfortunately I have a glitch with the h520 st16s controller that had missions on it. on a perfectly working unit you will not get the missions option.
 
Was with Yuneec UK and they tested the H3 against the DJI X7. They said it’s virtually identical quality photos. Considering you can buy the whole H3 for the same or less than just the X7 that’s a bargin.
 
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Hi all! I've been mapping with the H520 in stock and augmented hardware PPK configurations for two years and would be happy to answer any questions. I am on the flight Beta team with focus on surveying and firmwares. I don't think anyone here has gotten the official word that the Leica Ion camera or a version of it will not be compatible with the H520. You know Leica also makes GNSS RTK-capable hardware right?
 
Hi all! I've been mapping with the H520 in stock and augmented hardware PPK configurations for two years and would be happy to answer any questions. I am on the flight Beta team with focus on surveying and firmwares. I don't think anyone here has gotten the official word that the Leica Ion camera or a version of it will not be compatible with the H520. You know Leica also makes GNSS RTK-capable hardware right?

Interested in your knowledge on surveying, 3D and various terrain imaging.
If I understand... are you using a 3rd party PPK. I've recently examined the Klau PPK systems, they offer both integrated for DJI and more open add-on designs for other platforms.

Would you mind sharing your workflow... like an overview. I'd enjoy seeing what you've applied to obtain market results. Are you processing your images locally, product on cloud, or services?
You using the E90 to collect, are you/have you mounted any other cameras too?

If possible, on the Beta side... is there new product on the horizon, software app, Firmware, hardware?

I have very little info on the Leica payload, I may be the village idiot in the group too.
You mention Leica payload, are you suggesting the Leica will be a payload for several crafts or separate Leica hardware for different platforms? Have they considered a different mount adapter if needed to provide cross-platform payloads.

A few previous posts above indicated "tests" have show it near the caliber of the Zenmuse X7. Is the Leica a Full Frame Super 35 sensor? Will or does it have interchangeable lenses similar to the X7 or X5S? The X7 uses a proprietary DL mount, any news on the Leica setup?
 
Interested in your knowledge on surveying, 3D and various terrain imaging.
If I understand... are you using a 3rd party PPK. I've recently examined the Klau PPK systems, they offer both integrated for DJI and more open add-on designs for other platforms.

Would you mind sharing your workflow... like an overview. I'd enjoy seeing what you've applied to obtain market results. Are you processing your images locally, product on cloud, or services?
You using the E90 to collect, are you/have you mounted any other cameras too?

If possible, on the Beta side... is there new product on the horizon, software app, Firmware, hardware?

I have very little info on the Leica payload, I may be the village idiot in the group too.
You mention Leica payload, are you suggesting the Leica will be a payload for several crafts or separate Leica hardware for different platforms? Have they considered a different mount adapter if needed to provide cross-platform payloads.

A few previous posts above indicated "tests" have show it near the caliber of the Zenmuse X7. Is the Leica a Full Frame Super 35 sensor? Will or does it have interchangeable lenses similar to the X7 or X5S? The X7 uses a proprietary DL mount, any news on the Leica setup?


According to the interview with Yuneec executives, Yuneec has entered into a strategic partnership with Leica.
This could mean several things, as far as the Leica Ion L1 it is a fixed lens with fixed aperture and electronic shutter and a 1” sensor. Hopefully this will just be the first of many payloads offered by Leica and Yuneec, it would be nice to see something with an interchangeable lens system and at least a M4/3 sensor.
That is all I know (and all of this information I got online) maybe some other members can address your questions further. I am only a hobby drone user and am clueless when it comes to APK PPK etc...
 
Very good questions all, ignorance does not make us any idiot, quite the opposite.

Let's see if I translate correctly this proverb "it's better to be an ignorant for a minute and ask, than to be an idiot all your life for not having done it" ;)
 
According to the interview with Yuneec executives, Yuneec has entered into a strategic partnership with Leica.
This could mean several things, as far as the Leica Ion L1 it is a fixed lens with fixed aperture and electronic shutter and a 1” sensor. Hopefully this will just be the first of many payloads offered by Leica and Yuneec, it would be nice to see something with an interchangeable lens system and at least a M4/3 sensor.
That is all I know (and all of this information I got online) maybe some other members can address your questions further. I am only a hobby drone user and am clueless when it comes to APK PPK etc...

Well, it may not be far-fetched that the delay of the RTK version may be because of such things. I hope they really get something competitive. The E90 is not a bad camera but you have to play the lottery to get a good unit, in conditions, the distortion of the lens that have suffered many colleagues is not acceptable.
 
Interested in your knowledge on surveying, 3D and various terrain imaging.
If I understand... are you using a 3rd party PPK. I've recently examined the Klau PPK systems, they offer both integrated for DJI and more open add-on designs for other platforms.

Would you mind sharing your workflow... like an overview. I'd enjoy seeing what you've applied to obtain market results. Are you processing your images locally, product on cloud, or services?
You using the E90 to collect, are you/have you mounted any other cameras too?

If possible, on the Beta side... is there new product on the horizon, software app, Firmware, hardware?

I have very little info on the Leica payload, I may be the village idiot in the group too.
You mention Leica payload, are you suggesting the Leica will be a payload for several crafts or separate Leica hardware for different platforms? Have they considered a different mount adapter if needed to provide cross-platform payloads.

A few previous posts above indicated "tests" have show it near the caliber of the Zenmuse X7. Is the Leica a Full Frame Super 35 sensor? Will or does it have interchangeable lenses similar to the X7 or X5S? The X7 uses a proprietary DL mount, any news on the Leica setup?
Hi Doug. First a little background. I work for a general contractor that self-performs excavation, utilities and concrete. We also build buildings, but are mostly a construction manager at that point. My past life as a land surveyor brought me into the company to start an in-house survey program. This was 17 years ago and here we are now surveying with drones. Our primary goals for drone surveying are pre-construction topographics, materials management, inspections and asbuilt final surveys.
We use both Phantom 4 Pro's and Yuneec H520's with Emlid Reach M+ GNSS systems, but the P4P's are obviously now discontinued so are being phased out and the H520's are becoming the primary mapping platform. The P4P's utilize a 3D printed snap-on mount and intermediate shutter capture board to create events on the track recorded by the M+. The Yuneec is similar, but uses a custom mounting option that I came up with and it does not tie to the shutter so there are no events recorded. Instead, checkshots are taken. Both scenarios are post-processed with RTKLIB (rtkconv and rtkpost) to create a GPX file that is imported into Geosetter and the images are then batch geotagged using the PPK'd data. From there I just upload the correctly geotagged images and GCP coordinate file to DroneDeploy and wait for the map to be processed.
The first question usually is how does it work with PPK and not capturing the exact trigger on the H520. This is accomplished using the precise measurements of the Emlid equipment in relation to the H520 camera which are values for the "rover" in RTKLIB. The checkshot images I mentioned earlier are taken on known control and related to specific points on the GPX track in Geosetter establishing the time offset. Everything from there is batch edited.
Our GCP's are set in-house using the same control established by our surveyors from the design CAD files which then allows us to perfectly marry the exported drone data to the design for other processes. I know there are allot of people under the impression that they are going to get rid of GCP's and I can tell you from experience that in the AEC industry it is not an option because WGS84 and ellipsoid/geoid do not relate to State Plane/Grid and ground elevations. Even if you get extremely lucky and the direct transformation appears to come in at the right place that it doesn't because there are always shifts in localization and more commonly surface to grid scale factors. This is a major difference when surveying in the U.S.
I will not run RTK on a drone until a system of checks and balances are available to ensure that the RTK corrections fix is stable throughout the entire flight every time. Even with professional survey-grade GNSS equipment at less than 5mph there are losses of fix and false-fixes.
 
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I can't comment much on the H520/Leica/RTK partnering, but we're in the ballpark. I'm working on getting one of my H520's upgraded for RTK and then I will only use Emlid as the base station. It does confuse me though why there still needs to be a separation between media and mapping. Photographers and videographers may not care about mapping, but I can tell you that mappers care about photos and videos. To me that is a software versioning effort.
 
Plenty of great survey info to absorb!
You're coming from the 'ole walk the ground survey, manual plots and calculations! You'd be a good one to relate how it's all changed and if there's been a significant benefit or improvement other than time element. Did you previously use aerial via aircraft?

Curious why shelving P4P due to discontinued sales... wouldn't it provide services for several years to come? I know vendors still offering PPK hardware for the Inspire 1 and it's been out of production for years. Actually on DroneU they made the comment when P4Pv2 ceased production that several shops were buying multiple P4Pv2 units for inventory.

H520 mount: I saw a mount... maybe German company that made 3D mounts for the H520 for various devices. You made your own mount for the RTK / PPK hardware?

Interesting you state the GCP's will remain. The PPK methodology seems to minimize the GCP, althogh they do use GCP's more as markers and not accuracy points... if I understand the various workflow from various vendors.

I currently use a simplistic method; collect a construction site via "Maps made easy" grid pattern for visual progress, Insurance requirements, elementary volumetric ability and provide Clients the layers to show progress. Use same images for 3D model. Push it up to MME for processing. Then download the mesh and various files to explore on local software. Soon to start processing my images locally with Metashape to compare results.

The simplistic terrain image map has motivated interest to greater accuracy and per inquires if I could provide in both a construction and Ag environments... so learning or attempting to learn. I was looking at the RTK but had recently started to examine and focus on PPK systems. One aspect was the ability to move the core hardware between platforms with the use of separate mounts. The company listed above is my recent discovery & focus. The PPK appears to have much less hardware and a much lower investment.
 
I can't comment much on the H520/Leica/RTK partnering, but we're in the ballpark. I'm working on getting one of my H520's upgraded for RTK and then I will only use Emlid as the base station. It does confuse me though why there still needs to be a separation between media and mapping. Photographers and videographers may not care about mapping, but I can tell you that mappers care about photos and videos. To me that is a software versioning effort.
I think that has been on the request menu since the H520 was rolled out. It is absolutely stupid to have to purchase another system to do videography when putting out the money for a professional commercial system. At most it should be a software switch. The E90 and C23 are the same camera.
 
I think that has been on the request menu since the H520 was rolled out. It is absolutely stupid to have to purchase another system to do videography when putting out the money for a professional commercial system. At most it should be a software switch. The E90 and C23 are the same camera.
That's been my opinion as well... the only limitation has been firmware. The H520 should be the aggregate total of all models plus it's mapping features. There isn't any media featue not obtainable by the H520 that the H-Plus can perform. It's a bit insulting when a platform half the cost and same exact architecture other than FW can perform cinematic features.
 
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The PPK appears to have much less hardware and a much lower investment.

I got lost somewhere. The hardware is exactly the same, the only difference between RTK and PPK is that the first position is calculated in real time and the second is done by prosprocessing. Both have advantages and disadvantages depending on the circumstances of the flight. Am I lost?
 
That's been my opinion as well... the only limitation has been firmware. The H520 should be the aggregate total of all models plus it's mapping features. There isn't any media featue not obtainable by the H520 that the H-Plus can perform. It's a bit insulting when a platform half the cost and same exact architecture other than FW can perform cinematic features.

It's as easy as making a software modification and we can install the application that uses the H PLUS on the H520. You don't even need to integrate it into DataPilot. Simply when you want to make photo and video you start an application, for everything else DataPilot.
 
I got lost somewhere. The hardware is exactly the same, the only difference between RTK and PPK is that the first position is calculated in real time and the second is done by prosprocessing. Both have advantages and disadvantages depending on the circumstances of the flight. Am I lost?
You are probably correct, although that confuses me a bit. Each RTK vs PPK system I examine; the setup, need of Ground station & GCP setup appear to be different. The cost to add a RTK system compared to adding a PPK system are much lower cost. I may not be comparing apples to apples, and that's my end for not fully understanding.
 
Read a little more... I understand the RTK corrects during flight, and PPK corrects post flight. Although the need of base station or GCP exists for RTK but isn’t required with several PPK systems. Based on that I assumed there were differences. But it does look like it uses the the OEM RTK hardware if equipped, if not OEM, a different solution is often provided for PPK.
 
Plenty of great survey info to absorb!
You're coming from the 'ole walk the ground survey, manual plots and calculations! You'd be a good one to relate how it's all changed and if there's been a significant benefit or improvement other than time element. Did you previously use aerial via aircraft?

Curious why shelving P4P due to discontinued sales... wouldn't it provide services for several years to come? I know vendors still offering PPK hardware for the Inspire 1 and it's been out of production for years. Actually on DroneU they made the comment when P4Pv2 ceased production that several shops were buying multiple P4Pv2 units for inventory.

H520 mount: I saw a mount... maybe German company that made 3D mounts for the H520 for various devices. You made your own mount for the RTK / PPK hardware?

Interesting you state the GCP's will remain. The PPK methodology seems to minimize the GCP, althogh they do use GCP's more as markers and not accuracy points... if I understand the various workflow from various vendors.

I currently use a simplistic method; collect a construction site via "Maps made easy" grid pattern for visual progress, Insurance requirements, elementary volumetric ability and provide Clients the layers to show progress. Use same images for 3D model. Push it up to MME for processing. Then download the mesh and various files to explore on local software. Soon to start processing my images locally with Metashape to compare results.

The simplistic terrain image map has motivated interest to greater accuracy and per inquires if I could provide in both a construction and Ag environments... so learning or attempting to learn. I was looking at the RTK but had recently started to examine and focus on PPK systems. One aspect was the ability to move the core hardware between platforms with the use of separate mounts. The company listed above is my recent discovery & focus. The PPK appears to have much less hardware and a much lower investment.
Yes Sir, we've come a long way since manually entering coordinates into an HP48 calculator! Prior to the drone I use to go up in a Robinson R22 to take project aerials, but that was only about 3-4 years ago.

The reason I am choosing to demote the P4P is because we had one go down a couple of months ago and only have one left. Now that they are "rare" I see people paying $2-3k for just the standard package now. The H520 may be a little more complicated, but through our program and training standardization made sense. If I come across any decent deals on another P4P I will get it, but they will most likely be relegated to light duty and no mapping.

Here's a pic of the mounting I did for the Emlid M+ and Tallysman on the H520. There's two small pins underneath that align it and 3m Dual Lock keeps it secure. This way I can pop it off if I don't need it or want to use it as a rover. I can even pick the drone up by the antenna so not much chance it is going to move. The base is a 5v credit card battery backup with the micro-usb connector that plugs right into the M+. Nothing fancy, but it works until we get the RTK kit. Plus it only cost about $350 to put together.
1575085472733.png 1575085518318.png

Correct, while PPK/RTK reduces the need for GCP's and in some cases can eliminate them for what we do GCP's are vital for integral alignment and backup documentation and through testing on larger projects PPK/RTK still does not maintain the 2-3cm relative accuracy that is being claimed. I have even gotten data from a P4RTK operator that was as much as 10cm out of relative accuracy across a 100ac site without GCP's.

MME is a nice program and honestly is serves the needs for the masses until you start talking terms of absolute or stakeout accuracy. I need to be able to put the drone model back in a data collector and stake it out to within +/- 5cm. We can get better on smooth surfaces like paving, but dirt and rock is plenty good at 5-7cm. I too use Metashape sometimes. If i need a really nice 3D model of a structure or just need an orthomosaic map immediately i'll do it in Meta, but DroneDeploy processes 90% of our maps and hosts everything.

The only real cost difference between RTK and PPK nowadays is the software and the GNSS licensing. It use to be that you had to buy a $15k+ kit with their proprietary software to get consistent and quick RTK results. Even more back in the day. PPK was really popularized when L1-only or single path receivers got really cheap. They were (are) not very good at maintaining consistent fixes, but with PPK you could emulate a fixed condition with software on the backend. Now companies like Emlid and Carlson are making sub-$3k multipath receivers that rival the Big 3. While they still don't have high-end survey software you can do simple tasks or even spend another $1-2k for a 3rd party survey program like Microsurvey FieldGenius which is what I use with my Emlid. We use Topcon as our primary GPS, but I am trying to work through a program to introduce Emlid to the crews and save the high-dollar Topcon gear for my surveyors and machine control.
 
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It's as easy as making a software modification and we can install the application that uses the H PLUS on the H520. You don't even need to integrate it into DataPilot. Simply when you want to make photo and video you start an application, for everything else DataPilot.
I'm doing my best to get Yuneec and DroneDeploy to talk to each other!
 
Read a little more... I understand the RTK corrects during flight, and PPK corrects post flight. Although the need of base station or GCP exists for RTK but isn’t required with several PPK systems. Based on that I assumed there were differences. But it does look like it uses the the OEM RTK hardware if equipped, if not OEM, a different solution is often provided for PPK.
A base is needed for both solutions whether it be a physical local base or a CORS/VRS service. You can use NOAA or DOT GNSS logs instead of a base, but I have not had consistent luck with that.
 

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