Danger of Lipos and the crappy supplied charger

[NorWiscPilot]

Seeing how this is the second thread (I have found so far), this one started by the same author who ranted in the LiPo care thread - Post 36 I feel it worthy to post the same response here that I left in response to the earlier meltdown.

Note: I am stating this response in the same vain as @thetrecker - that is... due to the Title Of This Thread! [Ed. The thread title has since been edited, thankfully.]

It is posted again in the hopes if someone else sees this thread, and is freaking out about LiPo batteries, perhaps this will help calm the fears, if not just a little bit. (Along with the comments of other respected forum members already contributing to this very discussion.)

Jeff

Posted previously:

Hope you are not freaking out! It's not that bad.

Learning is easy... patience and attention to detail.

(Disclaimer: The following is presented as a summary of what you might find while searching for more information. It is not intended as an end all, be all, or expert recommendations. You, as the owner, are responsible for your own equipment, use and storage.)

• Yuneec likely did inform you of the potential dangers of the batteries we use. Its in those inserts and manual fine prints that rarely get read.
• To put in storage, we have options:
  • Fly them until just about 50% left
  • Chuck the included charger and invest in a good aftermarket charger that has:
    • Storage Mode
    • Individual cell voltage meter
    • Individual cell resistance monitor (not a must, but nice to have)
    • Adequate power to efficiently charge your batteries
  • A search of this forum for "battery chargers" should pull up lots of discussions about this very topic, and recommendations for chargers.
• Planning:
  • should take less than one hour to charge from storage level. Plan accordingly.
  • If the need exists to always have a set of batteries ready to go
    • acquire enough batteries to have one set ready (charged) and one set in storage. Rotate every day or two.
    • have enough charging capability to charge the full set at the same time.
• Have proper "packaging" to safely store batteries.
  • LiPo safe battery bags are available.
  • Some pilots use steel ammo boxes - WARNING: Make sure to drill air holes before use, in order to release any pressure in the event of a failure!

It may seem daunting on the surface, per your comments, but... with a little patience and research, plus proper care and handling, the anxiety can be alleviated.

Hope this helps!

 

[Chefinthesky]

 

[DoomMeister]

It is most realistic to consider the Yuneec manual to be the equivalent of grade school... and this board to be equivalent to college - minus the frat parties.

And the professors are the best in the business. We are fluent in Chinglish, and have diligent members that add to the original manuals to make them complete. Of course the older the craft the more complete the manuals are.

The manuals that come with any product from any company are CYA manuals that are meant to protect a manufacturer in a court of law. Not to fully understand, use , and maintain the product. This is coming from a person that worked ina manufacturing facility most of my career in jobs from assembly to machine operator to electrical maintenance to working with product and QA engineers.

 

[Bullshark]

maybe the article i mentioned is a bit too intense information, not saying its wrong but it sure got me worried!

They have to mention things that Can go wrong, just like prescription meds list "Possible" side effects, ie..can cause death..etc..etc.. If one person out of 10,000 died from the meds, then the meds "Can " cause it. So, if the battery exploded or caught fire for 1 pilot, then it "Could" explode. If you take care of them, and like previously mentioned , learn from this Forum and and others, you will have years of safe and great flying![emoji41]
"Knowledge Replaces Fear "

 

[NDJollyMon]

I don't want to come off mean, but common sense will tell you batteries are dangerous. Did you not see the Samsung Note 7 phones being banned from aircraft for batteries igniting? Batteries are stored energy. Any stored energy can be dangerous. Treat it accordingly.

 

[WaterMainMan]

For what it's worth, I've been using lithium batteries for about fifteen years in RC devices. I've never had a fire or explosion of any kind despite many, many cycles of use. Yes they can do some really bad things but they are not overly prone to do so. I think unbiased research would find that well over 90% of lithium battery fires can be traced back to user error. Don't short them out, don't use visibly damaged batteries, and don't try to recharge a battery that has been overly discharged.

 

[hueman]

Whats so annoying is that i fully charged two batteries last saturday evening ready for flight next morning ok...
Next day, weathers gone bad and has been now all week.
I was waiting for a chance to fly again but no such luck.

So, batts have probably degraded a bit by now and im finally sitting in my garage discharging my batts by letting the motors spin till the voltage reaches 14.8-15.2 because the weathers still crap.

No other safe way to do it until i get a decent charger! And its taking forever plus wearing the motors for nothing.

Yuneec should really supply a better charger and clearer battery info since theyre so delicate.

Anyway, done the research now and thanks all for your comments, think i got the message.

 

[Eagle's Eye Video]

One thing that will significantly help your battery life is to not leave a fully charged battery for a week. I went thru 3 batteries in about 6 months that way. If you cannot fly within 48 hours, discharging to storage voltage will keep your batteries safe and extend their life considerably.

 

[Ty Pilot]

For what it's worth, I've been using lithium batteries for about fifteen years in RC devices. I've never had a fire or explosion of any kind despite many, many cycles of use. Yes they can do some really bad things but they are not overly prone to do so. I think unbiased research would find that well over 90% of lithium battery fires can be traced back to user error. Don't short them out, don't use visibly damaged batteries, and don't try to recharge a battery that has been overly discharged.

Another thing to keep in mind if anyone is new to these battery compositions is; there is a difference between Lithium Ion (Li-Ion) and Lithium Polymer (LiPo), while both are Lithium batteries, the latter (LiPo) are far more dangerous in their potential for failure when not stored and charged properly. Li-Ion on the other hand are the same as what is in most electronic devices and are not as needy in their treatment. The battery in the ST-16 and ST-16S are Li-Ion and can (and should) be stored fully charged.

 

[PatR]

Don’t be concerned about wear on the motors. They have a long useful life. I don’t know of anyone that has worn one out yet.

 

[NorWiscPilot]

Whats so annoying is that i fully charged two batteries last saturday evening ready for flight next morning ok...
Next day, weathers gone bad and has been now all week.
I was waiting for a chance to fly again but no such luck.

So, batts have probably degraded a bit by now and im finally sitting in my garage discharging my batts by letting the motors spin till the voltage reaches 14.8-15.2 because the weathers still crap.

No other safe way to do it until i get a decent charger! And its taking forever plus wearing the motors for nothing.

Yuneec should really supply a better charger and clearer battery info since theyre so delicate.

Anyway, done the research now and thanks all for your comments, think i got the message.

Hueman,

There are a few techniques out there regarding discharging batteries; and some specifically for the H series.

Both @stevecarr and I have talked about using vehicle headlights (I personally have a “Wal-mart” fog light kit, with switch, for my set-up. I think I paid $20 USD.)

There is a battery voltage tester made for the Q and H that fits on the H batteries. The other side has terminals that can be connected to the load. The voltage display is right there for visual monitoring. Google search should find them.

My set-up takes about 20 minutes to discharge, to storage, a fully charged battery.

Important tips:
1) set a timer so as not to forget about the discharge; fully depleting is not good.
2) have a small desk fan blowing on the lamp(s) to keep them cool. Burned out my first one before the “Doh!” moment.

Do a search using keywords such as discharge, headlamp, headlight, voltage tester, using this forum’s search. You might find the threads previously discussing this. I’d do it (again) here, but by smartphone is not so easy. Sorry.

Jeff

P.S. using this set-up, I have no issues charging batteries for an expected flight or two, knowing I can discharge anytime if plans changed. Or, perhaps I didn’t fly the batteries down far enough.

Final note: save for that two to four port multi-use charger!

 

[PatR]

Add lipo voltage alarm to the keyword search. For a couple bucks and a charge adapter you’ll have an easy and effective means of checking voltage.

 

[hueman]

I did read those posts already but Id rather just get a dual port multi smart charger, been looking at several.
Thanks tho, good ideas.

 

[John Polasek]

As a point of comparison, does your car or lawnmower operation manual bother to point out that if you overfill the tank and have a gasoline spill in an enclosed garage, one cup of gasoline is equivalent to 6 sticks of dynamite? And if it didn't, are you going to get rid of your car? (Or switch to a <lipo fueled> all electric?

 

[pacoimaca]

After just reading this article - LiPo battery care - on the LIPO batteries for the Typhoon H, I realise I've been literally sitting on live grenades that could have potentially gone off at any time and ruined my van and even me!

How can they sell a drone with all its peripherals without including a charger that can discharge to storage level and clearer more prominent information about storage charge and the dangers of these batteries?

Sorry to rant but i find it appauling that there is such minimal documentation included in the box.

4 times I left the battery charging over night I guess I luck out because I did not read up on how to take care of the battery I've had the q-500 now the TH for two years its good to read the manual first.

 

[hueman]

As a point of comparison, does your car or lawnmower operation manual bother to point out that if you overfill the tank and have a gasoline spill in an enclosed garage, one cup of gasoline is equivalent to 6 sticks of dynamite? And if it didn't, are you going to get rid of your car? (Or switch to a <lipo fueled> all electric?

NO, not quite mate. Everyone knows that petrol and the likes are flammable or explosive and to treat it accordingly, no matter in what form it is, be it parafin, petroleum, diesel etc. it is well known and mostly taught at young age, hence common knowledge.

Batteries however, come in many differnt types, shapes, sizes and forms and we all grew up with the typical AA type batteries etc, knowing they are relatively safe as long as you don't go provoking them by throwing them in the fire or so.

Most modern batteries too are safe, even LION are WAY safer than LIPO and are much lower maintenance and danger!

So you see, it's not blaintly obvious and should be made VERY clear that these LIPO's are different than what most people know (who haven't dealt with these before) about batteries.

It wouldn't take much to have one of those 'SHEETS' (as yuneec calls them - the black cardboard warning sheets included with the yuneec) to be dedicated to complete, thorough and prominent info regarding the LIPO's.

Furthermore, I for one would rather pay a little more to begin with for them to include a smarter charger than the disposable one they currently include.

Just my two cents mate.

 

[PatR]

4 times I left the battery charging over night I guess I luck out because I did not read up on how to take care of the battery I've had the q-500 now the TH for two years its good to read the manual first.

That is the entire premise behind the design of the charger Yuneec provides for their systems. It's designed to protect people from themselves as it cannot over charge a battery. Truth is, a great many people jump into this hobby with absolutely zero knowledge of the systems and peripherals associated with the activity. They don't know how to use them, handle them, service them, or store them. Worse, many of those will not bother to read the instructions and dive right into trying to operate the system. Because of the dangers associated high discharge rate lithium ion batteries a manufacturer MUST deliver a means to prevent the user from burning their house down and killing their families. If battery life is sacrificed in order to do that, the price is cheap against what could have happened. The alternative would be to provide batteries that people HAD to monitor, which is a method I prefer over what the industry is moving to.

Sure, there are other ways to deal with the situation that many would consider better, but all of them require providing a considerably more complicated charger, one with the capability to cause battery failure if the use instructions were not followed. I've already mentioned that many don't read instructions, and where chargers are concerned that sistation is exacerbated by the fact the instructions for advanced battery chargers are, at best, confusing and difficult to understand. If you buy one from a long standing brand manufacturer you'll get much better instructions but as most look for the cheapest solution, which are always product copied from the long standing manufacturers that created them, you get instruction that are almost useless because they have been shortened to make them cheaper and to alter the text to avoid copyrights.

So what do you do, sell a charger that gets the charging side done safely at a price cheap enough to keep the package price affordable, or include a higher priced, more capable charger that increases the price of the package that does more but requires understanding? For the 920 series Yuneec provided a very capable charger, but at the price point of the 920 series perhaps they figured the customer base would be more mature and possess greater knowledge of the activity they would be participating in. For the lower priced, and to be candid, amateur systems, they provide chargers that limit the user's ability to harm themselves. It's sad that manufacturers find need to do things that way but reality has consistently demonstrated how truly necessary that is. Look at the morons that have killed themselves driving Tesla's on "auto pilot" as a perfect example, and those people have all been adults with financials that would suggest a higher level of intelligence. It's pretty hard to finally read the instructions after you've burned the house down they were sitting in, and people have burned their homes and vehicles down through ignorance and inattentiveness. Manufacturers have to assume their customers are stupid until they prove themselves otherwise. That may look a bit raw but it's the truth.

 

[hueman]

That is the entire premise behind the design of the charger Yuneec provides for their systems. It's designed to protect people from themselves as it cannot over charge a battery. Truth is, a great many people jump into this hobby with absolutely zero knowledge of the systems and peripherals associated with the activity. They don't know how to use them, handle them, service them, or store them. Worse, many of those will not bother to read the instructions and dive right into trying to operate the system. Because of the dangers associated high discharge rate lithium ion batteries a manufacturer MUST deliver a means to prevent the user from burning their house down and killing their families. If battery life is sacrificed in order to do that, the price is cheap against what could have happened. The alternative would be to provide batteries that people HAD to monitor, which is a method I prefer over what the industry is moving to.

Sure, there are other ways to deal with the situation that many would consider better, but all of them require providing a considerably more complicated charger, one with the capability to cause battery failure if the use instructions were not followed. I've already mentioned that many don't read instructions, and where chargers are concerned that sistation is exacerbated by the fact the instructions for advanced battery chargers are, at best, confusing and difficult to understand. If you buy one from a long standing brand manufacturer you'll get much better instructions but as most look for the cheapest solution, which are always product copied from the long standing manufacturers that created them, you get instruction that are almost useless because they have been shortened to make them cheaper and to alter the text to avoid copyrights.

So what do you do, sell a charger that gets the charging side done safely at a price cheap enough to keep the package price affordable, or include a higher priced, more capable charger that increases the price of the package that does more but requires understanding? For the 920 series Yuneec provided a very capable charger, but at the price point of the 920 series perhaps they figured the customer base would be more mature and possess greater knowledge of the activity they would be participating in. For the lower priced, and to be candid, amateur systems, they provide chargers that limit the user's ability to harm themselves. It's sad that manufacturers find need to do things that way but reality has consistently demonstrated how truly necessary that is. Look at the morons that have killed themselves driving Tesla's on "auto pilot" as a perfect example, and those people have all been adults with financials that would suggest a higher level of intelligence. It's pretty hard to finally read the instructions after you've burned the house down they were sitting in, and people have burned their homes and vehicles down through ignorance and inattentiveness. Manufacturers have to assume their customers are stupid until they prove themselves otherwise. That may look a bit raw but it's the truth.

all they need do is supply their standard charger with a discharge function and a bit more info than just the smallprint at the end of the quick start guide. not too difficult and might save people destroying their first batteries, then again, maybe its in their interest if they do...

 

[PatR]

I tend to agree but anything that adds to the initial cost is something they will avoid. We have to look at things from a mass marketing perspective. When a retail price difference of only $3.00 could be the difference between someone buying your product or one from another manufacturer you go the cheapest route possible.

Personally, I detest any and all of the smart battery designs as they limit the user to a particular brand and type of batteries at non competitive price points. They also reduce the quality of the battery to whatever the cheapest version is available for a manufacturer to buy in bulk quantities. Any reasonably intelligent person can buy their choice of batteries in various voltages, capacities, and dimensions all day long at a wide selection of vendors at much better prices and quality if they understand what they are working with and know how to use a good charger. "Good" is a relative term as some seem to think the cheapest product available at Amazon that provides the desired functions is "good". The problem with that is that cheap chargers generally have short life spans, lack the accuracy necessary to perform the tasks correctly, and short out electrically when they fail, which can take the battery with it.

Most of the consumer products using lithium batteries are intentionally quite limited in discharge rate. Cell phones, cameras, and laptops all use a mild, constant rate discharge, with an equally mild charge rte, to reduce the potential of consumers damaging them. Electric model aviation is a completely different situation as what is needed to occur for us to obtain the power necessary for flight without having to use an absolutely massive battery requires elevating discharge rates, sometimes to a level that can place the battery on the edge of a catastrophic failure. Interestingly, Yuneec employs load limits on all of their systems to prevent people from over loading battery C ratings, but those limits are still much higher in load than what other types of products place on their lithium batteries. If we were review all the battery charger/battery service threads in various RC forums we might be saddened to see how little people knew about or understood the power source they were using, and how the associated components interacted.

I guess how and what a manufacturer does with battery chargers is both a boon and a bane. For some whatever is provided will make life easy while for others it can make things more difficult or aggravating. Not yet have I seen anything that has mde everyone happy 100% of the time. The more knowledgeable an individual is will help establish what they choose or the path they will take afterwards. How they obtain that lnowledge plays a part in their options. Do they learn in advance of engaging in an activity or start with nothing and learn things slowly over time while involved in an activity? We all learn more with time of activity involvement but how and when we started learning can be pretty important. Ignorance is bliss, right up until we find out it wasn't.

The reason all the Sticky threads are attached at the top of forum pages is to help dispel ignorance by providing important information. Those that read them learn a lot faster, and at a lower cost.

 

[jcommstudios]

Just think that Yuneec's very loose instructions regarding storage voltage are way insufficient:

"IMPORTANT NOTE: It’s safer and better for the longevity of the battery to store it only partially charged for any length of time. Storing the battery
approximately 50% charged is typically best, however, it will take some careful management of the charge time and the use of a volt meter to achieve this
voltage. If you have the equipment and skills to achieve the 50% charge level for storage it is recommended. If not, simply be sure to not store the battery
fully charged whenever possible.
In fact, as long as the battery will be stored at approximately room temperature and for no more than a few weeks before the next use, it may be best to
store the battery in the discharged state after the last flight (as long as the battery was not over-discharged on the last flight). "

LOL

" no more than a few weeks " ?!

This is a decent charger. Gives you info on each cell and will discharge or bring an exhausted battery up to storage level. The H charger is basically a throw away unit or just use the usb to charge the controller.
Crummy cell phone pic in low light but you get the point!