H520 E10Tv questions

[Wingman]

The 320 is pretty good, 640 is twice as detailed

Actually it should be 4 times more. It is not just an increase in horizontal resolution, it is also two sizes for vertical.

As for the quality of a thermal image, I would guess they(DJI and Yuneec) are using the same Flir sensor so it should be no difference.

 

[Wingman]

Do you have a link that shows this?

That's not correct FLIR is much bigger than DJI, like 73 times bigger in their capitalization. DJI will never be able to buy(own) FLIR. 112m vs 7.4B, like a mouse vs elephant.

 

[Dougcjohn]

Actually it should be 4 times more. It is not just an increase in horizontal resolution, it is also two sizes for vertical.

As for the quality of a thermal image, I would guess they(DJI and Yuneec) are using the same Flir sensor so it should be no difference.

Actually DJI is using previous generation and Yuneec using the newer gen as mentioned. Resolution and thermal specs the same, although new sensor is lower voltage, runs cooler. So 640 no difference in obtained image.

 

[Dougcjohn]

That's not correct FLIR is much bigger than DJI, like 73 times bigger in their capitalization. DJI will never be able to buy(own) FLIR. 112m vs 7.4B, like a mouse vs elephant.

@Wingman was already corrected by time you read. Interesting this has been the take away by a few when that wasn't the subject or core msg... the OP received the core msg.

 

[arruntus]

Ahhh, you have my attention; Always a learning ear... what FLIR did you experiment with and what brand did you discover a better solution? I've looked at Fluke and Seek... and the Hti-Xintal HT-A02 320 Thermal & 640 RGB handheld looks like a nice handheld but pricey @ $630. Amazon.com: 320 x 240 IR Resolution Thermal Camera, Pocket-Sized Infrared Camera with 76800 Pixels Real-Time Thermal Image, Temperature Measurement Range -4°F to 572°F,Mini IR Thermal Imager,Hti-Xintai: Gateway

As you probably saw over on other forum... I tried the Flir One Pro (160) Radiometric to use with phone screen. Now that was a disappointment... not so much 160 MSX, was expecting that one.. but performance, pallets, and battery life were primary negatives.

Then tried the Anafi-T (Flir 160) and it's Parrot software was a disappointment, and again performance, screen movement and response were below acceptable... but that's been commented several times in reviews too, nothing new. Returned both, will experiment with M2EDual to see how upscaling thermal & MSX work together.

As a alternative to Zenmuse XT, this one was an interesting read... may need to explore.

A very cost effective Zenmuse XT alternative: VuIR Tab HD with Geotagging

So you have been considering the famous DJI Zenmuse XT thermal imaging gimbal-camera (gimmera) for a while but still have not pulled the trigger yet because it's so over the budget? (The 336 Zenmuse XT costs around $7000 and the Zenmuse XT 640 radiometric version costs around $14,000+.) Or is it...

www.suas.com

The ICI brand make excellent FLIR alternatives.
They look to be offering various UAV and a Sensor Control Module that appears to be adaptable to many platforms & gimbals.

Thermal Solutions | Infrared Cameras Inc | Thermal Imaging Camera

ICI is proud to present our development of thermal solutions, multi-spectral infrared cameras & complete package systems.

infraredcameras.com

Control Module Sensor | UAV Remote | Infrared Cameras Inc

The Control Module Sensor provides remote management of our USB & aerial/UAV thermal cameras including image storage & data transfer for detailed mosaics,

infraredcameras.com

They also make their own carbon platform... 8 - 22" prop, uses DJI A3/Lightbridge 2 electronics so should be similar to interfacing with a M600pro but with non-ZenMuse Thermals. Found one on eBay for $30K.

HALO Pro Drone | Aerial UAV Inspection | Infrared Cameras Inc

The HALO Pro drone is a durable, lightweight, all-in-one infrared aerial inspection solution. Easy to transport. View features here.

infraredcameras.com

There's several Chineese outfits that appear to be making nice units too.

Best Drone Shop-Industrial Drone Solution Provider!

One-Stop Shop For Drone Zoom Camera | Multirotor & VTOL Fixed-wing | Video Transmitter | Always HIGH Quality Products!

www.yangdaonline.com

I saw it on the other forum. I have always said that today a 320 camera provides very little resolution. At least 640. And depending on the fence to use, radiometric too.

I bought the Vue Pro R, the 640. The pathetic video image refresh, 7 fps, when I should have been given the PAL version, which is 9 fps, is still pathetic but I felt swindled, proteste and for other circumstances of time did not return it. In fact the new model, the DUO Pro R is now manufactured in Switzerland to avoid those US export measures to limit FPS. Now they all have 30 fps.

Unfortunately, late, due to anger, I researched and found 2 European companies that manufactured cameras with the same or superior characteristics, very similar weight but in comparison little known. I investigated this 2 years ago, it would be a question of looking for what is now, if I remember I will look for those cameras that I tell you I have to have the URL's saved somewhere............

 

[Dougcjohn]

I saw it on the other forum. I have always said that today a 320 camera provides very little resolution. At least 640. And depending on the fence to use, radiometric too.

I bought the Vue Pro R, the 640. The pathetic video image refresh, 7 fps, when I should have been given the PAL version, which is 9 fps, is still pathetic but I felt swindled, proteste and for other circumstances of time did not return it. In fact the new model, the DUO Pro R is now manufactured in Switzerland to avoid those US export measures to limit FPS. Now they all have 30 fps.

Unfortunately, late, due to anger, I researched and found 2 European companies that manufactured cameras with the same or superior characteristics, very similar weight but in comparison little known. I investigated this 2 years ago, it would be a question of looking for what is now, if I remember I will look for those cameras that I tell you I have to have the URL's saved somewhere............

You mentioned a few points of recent learning... Until last week, I wasn't aware that UK had a 30fps, I thought USA 30 and UK 9fps. So as of now, can the 30fps be used most places? The Vue Pro R 640 is a bit concerning on video. Not to dismiss the laggy video, but other than FPS was the Thermal Radiometric image detail good, it was still a 640?

On the 320, I'm fully in agreement with you for any altitude or requirement of detail, the 640 is the only option. Although, I feel there is a place for both the 160 & 320 Sensors. The 320 at handheld distance could be effective with RGB overlay maybe up to 150-175 feet, and the 160 75-100 feet... again, needing the RGB overlay. I'm thinking of getting the Amazon unit listed above as an experiment. I like the self contained 320 and Screen unit compared to the Phone with FLIR One Pro 160R. But unsure of the data obtainable in Post Dx if not a FLIR with FLIR Tools.

We been discussing on both forums (Commercial & Yuneec) the Anafi-T and the M2ED with the 160 Lepton sensor as being Radiometric. Several sources still indicate it as advanced radiometric, but I've found a few recently... DroneU for one, indicating a "correction" that they are NOT Radiometric. I'm not sure how they concluded NOT Radiometric, my tests clearly show they are Radiometric as advertised.

While testing & evaluating the Parrot Anafi-T, I retained the still images & video to compare later with the M2ED from the SD card before returning. From the JPG image: using the FLIR tools program, I am able to separate and see the 2 Images: Thermal & RGB. On the Thermal Image I am able to use all the FLIR Tools menu options to obtain a "Spot" measurement, Line: Min/Max/Avg Temps, Box HI-LOW Zone, Delta Function and apply any of the FLIR Tool multiple color pallets. It's also fully functional to change Emissivity and Refl Temp and re-evaluate the image points. I'd say it's Adv Radiometric as advertised!

The FLIR Tools actually make it much more informational than the Parrot's Image information and provides more of the commonly used color pallets missing in the Parrot software.

 

[arruntus]

Until last week, I wasn't aware that UK had a 30fps, I thought USA 30 and UK 9fps. So as of now, can the 30fps be used most places? The Vue Pro R 640 is a bit concerning on video. Not to dismiss the laggy video, but other than FPS was the Thermal Radiometric image detail good, it was still a 640?

I haven't explained myself well, it'll be because of my language problems. It doesn't matter the resolution of the camera or the lens. The U.S. has an export regulation for radiometric cameras that limits the fps of that technology. So if the camera is manufactured in the U.S. and goes abroad has to sell at 9 fps if PAL version or 7 if NTSC version. Something that doesn't happen in other countries (as far as I know).

What has Flir done to get customers in other countries outside the U.S. to buy their products again? Why won't anyone buy a limited product when they can buy another one that isn't? In order to be able to sell Flir cameras outside the U.S. without that limitation they have moved the production, for example of the new DUO Pro R, to Switzerland that does not have those export laws. Now you can sell their cameras to everyone without that limitation. You can take them to the US without that limitation and sell them at 30fps as they always have done in the US but again, even if they are manufactured in Switzerland, if you take them to the US and then try to export abroad again they will have to limit them again. Today, as far as I know, it's a ridiculous export law.

On the 320, I'm fully in agreement with you for any altitude or requirement of detail, the 640 is the only option. Although, I feel there is a place for both the 160 & 320 Sensors. The 320 at handheld distance could be effective with RGB overlay maybe up to 150-175 feet, and the 160 75-100 feet... again, needing the RGB overlay. I'm thinking of getting the Amazon unit listed above as an experiment. I like the self contained 320 and Screen unit compared to the Phone with FLIR One Pro 160R. But unsure of the data obtainable in Post Dx if not a FLIR with FLIR Tools.

We been discussing on both forums (Commercial & Yuneec) the Anafi-T and the M2ED with the 160 Lepton sensor as being Radiometric. Several sources still indicate it as advanced radiometric, but I've found a few recently... DroneU for one, indicating a "correction" that they are NOT Radiometric. I'm not sure how they concluded NOT Radiometric, my tests clearly show they are Radiometric as advertised.

While testing & evaluating the Parrot Anafi-T, I retained the still images & video to compare later with the M2ED from the SD card before returning. From the JPG image: using the FLIR tools program, I am able to separate and see the 2 Images: Thermal & RGB. On the Thermal Image I am able to use all the FLIR Tools menu options to obtain a "Spot" measurement, Line: Min/Max/Avg Temps, Box HI-LOW Zone, Delta Function and apply any of the FLIR Tool multiple color pallets. It's also fully functional to change Emissivity and Refl Temp and re-evaluate the image points. I'd say it's Adv Radiometric as advertised!

I've always referred to using them with drones. For now the cameras that have more resolution of 640, few there are, I'm afraid, will have an exorbitant price. In my opinion to use a thermal camera with a drone, at present, 640 is the minimum resolution to use.

As I understand it, by definition, if from any pixel of an image you can get the temperature is a radiometric image. I don't know why they say it's not radiometric. The same because the information is interpolated and it is not real temperature that captures the sensor? I don't know.

The FLIR Tools actually make it much more informational than the Parrot's Image information and provides more of the commonly used color pallets missing in the Parrot software.

I see it useful too, but I think we are in the same problem, because we have no point of comparison or it is scarce. Searching for a thermal image analysis software is not easy and therefore having only the most used or famous software as a reference does not allow us to elaborate an objective opinion, I think. It may or may not be the best. We have much more knowledgeable colleagues on this subject and they can still enlighten us.

 

[Dougcjohn]

I haven't explained myself well, it'll be because of my language problems. It doesn't matter the resolution of the camera or the lens. The U.S. has an export regulation for radiometric cameras that limits the fps of that technology. So if the camera is manufactured in the U.S. and goes abroad has to sell at 9 fps if PAL version or 7 if NTSC version. Something that doesn't happen in other countries (as far as I know).

What has Flir done to get customers in other countries outside the U.S. to buy their products again? Why won't anyone buy a limited product when they can buy another one that isn't? In order to be able to sell Flir cameras outside the U.S. without that limitation they have moved the production, for example of the new DUO Pro R, to Switzerland that does not have those export laws. Now you can sell their cameras to everyone without that limitation. You can take them to the US without that limitation and sell them at 30fps as they always have done in the US but again, even if they are manufactured in Switzerland, if you take them to the US and then try to export abroad again they will have to limit them again. Today, as far as I know, it's a ridiculous export law.



I've always referred to using them with drones. For now the cameras that have more resolution of 640, few there are, I'm afraid, will have an exorbitant price. In my opinion to use a thermal camera with a drone, at present, 640 is the minimum resolution to use.

As I understand it, by definition, if from any pixel of an image you can get the temperature is a radiometric image. I don't know why they say it's not radiometric. The same because the information is interpolated and it is not real temperature that captures the sensor? I don't know.



I see it useful too, but I think we are in the same problem, because we have no point of comparison or it is scarce. Searching for a thermal image analysis software is not easy and therefore having only the most used or famous software as a reference does not allow us to elaborate an objective opinion, I think. It may or may not be the best. We have much more knowledgeable colleagues on this subject and they can still enlighten us.

What country / language do you claim home?

You've again shared information that is both knowledgeable & Informative. That explains a XT R 640 30Hz Sale. A UK Seller didn't list frame rate at first.. and I replied to an interested USA Party that most likely assume it's a 9Hz. The Seller responded that it was a 30Hz and I was wrong to assume only USA had 30Hz XT. That was news to me, unless like you indicate the XT series is possibly built in UK plant. I wasn't aware of that manufacturing either.

I'd fully agree, the 640-R is ideal & best under present technology... and cost is extreme! Although, with lower altitude, building occupant clearing (friend or threat), accident scene quick near zone inspection of brush for thrown occupants, obtaining a small device, etc... a 320-R could have a place. I'm not convinced of the 160-R... but the upscaling and MSX technology do help with it's limitations at a very moderate price. For many handhelds, they are 80 and that is interesting to me when you consider price.

If not for price, nothing less than 640-R would be preferred... but unless it's paying for itself and profitable the 640-R is out of reach. The 160 handheld or 160 AirCraft could be obtained as even hobby or educational tool.

 

[arruntus]

What country / language do you claim home?

You've again shared information that is both knowledgeable & Informative. That explains a XT R 640 30Hz Sale. A UK Seller didn't list frame rate at first.. and I replied to an interested USA Party that most likely assume it's a 9Hz. The Seller responded that it was a 30Hz and I was wrong to assume only USA had 30Hz XT. That was news to me, unless like you indicate the XT series is possibly built in UK plant. I wasn't aware of that manufacturing either.

I'd fully agree, the 640-R is ideal & best under present technology... and cost is extreme! Although, with lower altitude, building occupant clearing (friend or threat), accident scene quick near zone inspection of brush for thrown occupants, obtaining a small device, etc... a 320-R could have a place. I'm not convinced of the 160-R... but the upscaling and MSX technology do help with it's limitations at a very moderate price. For many handhelds, they are 80 and that is interesting to me when you consider price.

If not for price, nothing less than 640-R would be preferred... but unless it's paying for itself and profitable the 640-R is out of reach. The 160 handheld or 160 AirCraft could be obtained as even hobby or educational tool.

I agree, Flir's MSX technology, or similar technology from other manufacturers, is an important advantage when it comes to identifying areas or parts of the study area. I see it more useful with manual cameras than with the camera mounted on a drone where the objects of study tend to be larger. Still, I think it's an important breakthrough.

Before buying the VUE Pro R, I spent a lot of time researching the best option, this was more than 2 years ago already. Then there was very little information and unfortunately I think I made a mistake simply because of the video frequency and because from Flir, when I claimed that not only should be 9 fps, but had given me an NTSC version with 7 fps, I received an undesirable treatment. Both Flir USA and Flir Europe were not clear but knew that they were participating in what can be clearly classified as a scam, an attempt to clear stock and release the DUO Pro R.

The prices, I think, are disproportionate. In the field of thermal cameras, the hegemony shown by Flir for years towards that was so. Today other manufacturers have come out, they are making room in the market and to us the competition, in all fields, it suits us very well because it means having good products at better prices. Not everything is Flir nor its expensive courses, that we remember are accepted because practically they are the only ones that there are and they make that they are accepted by the others. Official courses, backed by the government, are either minimal or non-existent, this makes them offered from Flir or ITC, etc, are factos say the "official". But always bearing in mind that they are certifications from a private company.

We hope that competition will continue to increase and we will have access to better products and quality training at competitive prices, but for this demand must also increase otherwise we will continue the same. k

 

[joneil]

Something else here to consider is the difference between the machines themselves. I own and fly both the H520 and the Inspire 1 V2. I do NOT have theremal cameras, like many of you I am reading and waiting to see. Back to the machines themselves

Overall the battery duration is much better on the H520 than on the Inspire 1. Secondly, I personally find that slow motion, fine control on the H520 is better / easier than the Inspire. Last, regardless of what anyone says, the idea of 6 props vs 4 in some situaiton puts my mind at a bit of ease. If you want to chase race cars around the track and get great cinematic footage, go Inspire, but for mapping and inspection, the H520 more and more is the machine of my choice.

I guess the best way to describe the issue to people is flying DJI is like a sports car with a big V8, and flying the H520 is like a pickup truck with a big turbo diesel V8, if that makes any sense.

Another factor is cost. DJI is no longer making the Phantom 4, they are pushing the Mavic instead. While the Mavic is fine for real estate and wedding work in low winds, it's not useful for much else. So there is a real gap there betweent he Mavic and the Inspire which the H520 fills in both size and performance. For example, I find that I use my H520 far more than my Inspire 1. I suspect that to find a machine equivalent or better than the H520, I would need ot go to an Inspire 2. However, at least here in Canada, when I priced everything out, a full Inspire 2 package was lmost twice the price of a similar H520 package. I looked at other machines and packages too, but then the price jumped considerably. Beautiful equipment, but not cheap. Depends on your needs. For example, if you want to shoot footage for the next Netflix movie, and Inspire 2 with a top end camera is the way to go.

So at the end of the day while you can find better machines than the H520, the price will be considerably higher. At this point, that is a major consideration.

 

[Dougcjohn]

Something else here to consider is the difference between the machines themselves. I own and fly both the H520 and the Inspire 1 V2. I do NOT have theremal cameras, like many of you I am reading and waiting to see. Back to the machines themselves

Overall the battery duration is much better on the H520 than on the Inspire 1. Secondly, I personally find that slow motion, fine control on the H520 is better / easier than the Inspire. Last, regardless of what anyone says, the idea of 6 props vs 4 in some situaiton puts my mind at a bit of ease. If you want to chase race cars around the track and get great cinematic footage, go Inspire, but for mapping and inspection, the H520 more and more is the machine of my choice.

I guess the best way to describe the issue to people is flying DJI is like a sports car with a big V8, and flying the H520 is like a pickup truck with a big turbo diesel V8, if that makes any sense.

Another factor is cost. DJI is no longer making the Phantom 4, they are pushing the Mavic instead. While the Mavic is fine for real estate and wedding work in low winds, it's not useful for much else. So there is a real gap there betweent he Mavic and the Inspire which the H520 fills in both size and performance. For example, I find that I use my H520 far more than my Inspire 1. I suspect that to find a machine equivalent or better than the H520, I would need ot go to an Inspire 2. However, at least here in Canada, when I priced everything out, a full Inspire 2 package was lmost twice the price of a similar H520 package. I looked at other machines and packages too, but then the price jumped considerably. Beautiful equipment, but not cheap. Depends on your needs. For example, if you want to shoot footage for the next Netflix movie, and Inspire 2 with a top end camera is the way to go.

So at the end of the day while you can find better machines than the H520, the price will be considerably higher. At this point, that is a major consideration.

Agree with you on the merits of the H520, it has it's great points! I too own a H520 and am looking forward to more functionality if or when development presents.

Although for the Op's question; hardware was considered... both platform & cameras.
The I1v2 can be obtained for an extremely good price now that it's become probably the oldest profession craft (retail prosumer) that's still popular & flying. The Cameras... the H520 has the E90 1" sensor, E50 2/3 sensor and currently no functional Thermal. The I1v2 offers the X3 2/3 sensor, X5 MFT and X5Raw MFT, Z3 2/3 Zoom, XT Thermal, and several Ag focused specialized NVDI / Multispectrum integrated cameras and the ability to use extremely sharp 3rd party lenses from wide to moderate telephoto.

Regarding battery: Per spec's the H520 has a little longer battery, H520 E90 is Spec'ed 25 min, the I1 TB48 spec'ed 22 min. Both have other data indicating less & more.

The comparing of Mavic Pro, I'd tend to agree the H520 platform would win the stability, although reguarding the M2P I don't feel the H520 is superior to the M2P in current offering of hardware, software and 3rd party offerings. Reguarding stability within the 22 mph wind designed specs, the electronics of the M2P provides excellent stabilty and include several modes for extremely smooth video capture (Tripod, etc), with about equal battery and speed as the H520 in small package. Several P4P have been traded-in for a M2P with positive outcomes.

As of current, and no fault to the H520 platform... more Yuneec's lack of additional development. The I1v2 provides esentially more capabilities. It's not as stable in higher winds, but provides more options in hardware & software for various operations.

I do hope to see the H520's E10Tv and E10Tv-R thermal become a reality, I'd also like to see a MFT sensor camera offering & gimbal that would allow multiple lenses; the H520 should be able to handle something more than a 1" sensor. I'd really enjoy seeing the software market improving with additional software options that would incorporate with flight controls. The more developers, the more creativty that results in growth. Adding these few things to the platform and the H520 would be a strong platform to beat! Hopefully it'll take a growing direction, and won't be discarded for a new model.

 

[arruntus]

Comrade, we all want it, but the data is on the table. It will soon be two years since the H520 was launched. It has evolved in "technical" matters, especially photogrammetry. In terms of "cinematography" has not advanced absolutely anything, even though it was announced as such.

Unfortunately and after so long we continue as the first day, without having information, without knowing the roadmap, everything is trust in the company, we all want to fulfill what was announced but we remain in the dark.

The truth is that patience has a limit, and of course many of us have surpassed that limit, to the point that many of the initial buyers have sold the drone because what was announced has not been fulfilled. We still don't even have the simplest functions that 300€ drones have at the time of departure. I have the feeling of being part of an experiment to see how long it takes people to get tired of waiting.

In the meantime, we are all contributing what we can to make a "bland" drone a little sweeter

 

[Dougcjohn]

Comrade, we all want it, but the data is on the table. It will soon be two years since the H520 was launched. It has evolved in "technical" matters, especially photogrammetry. In terms of "cinematography" has not advanced absolutely anything, even though it was announced as such.

Unfortunately and after so long we continue as the first day, without having information, without knowing the roadmap, everything is trust in the company, we all want to fulfill what was announced but we remain in the dark.

The truth is that patience has a limit, and of course many of us have surpassed that limit, to the point that many of the initial buyers have sold the drone because what was announced has not been fulfilled. We still don't even have the simplest functions that 300€ drones have at the time of departure. I have the feeling of being part of an experiment to see how long it takes people to get tired of waiting.

In the meantime, we are all contributing what we can to make a "bland" drone a little sweeter

Конрад, ты русский? Моя жена русская.
If so, you've done great on the translation.

I have the feeling of being part of an experiment to see how long it takes people to get tired of waiting.

Interesting viewpoint and has merit.

 

[arruntus]

I am Basque and I use the translator Deepl. When I don't review what the translator translates, sometimes it has a life of its own, I say some barbarity, I hope you understand what I mean

 

[Dougcjohn]

I am Basque and I use the translator Deepl. When I don't review what the translator translates, sometimes it has a life of its own, I say some barbarity, I hope you understand what I mean

Gotcha! The "Comrade" greet took me down another familiar path.
Orain, hau da zure hizkuntza gehiago, kamarada.
Hopefully my quick translator didn't error...

 

[arruntus]

Gotcha! The "Comrade" greet took me down another familiar path.
Orain, hau da zure hizkuntza gehiago, kamarada.
Hopefully my quick translator didn't error...

Translate in my language as the translator translates what I speak in English. Here we usually say that he speaks in Indian (by the way the American Indians spoke in the cowboy movies). It doesn't matter, the important thing is that we understand each other

Thanks for the translation, I liked it