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I have flipped my H on landing 3 times now. ENOUGH!

Perhaps it's much too soon for you to be adjusting anything in the ST-16 on your own. I advise the most you do is look, take pictures, and post them back here for review. I feel the only calibration process you could safely do at this point in time is the one that resides in the secret menu. It does not provide means to manually adjust transmitter curves and limits. It's not wise to be adjusting how an auto pilot functions when you have yet to learn how to fly as it currently is. It is also not wise to direct people still learning to fly to systems where those people could well and truly screw up their controller, eliminating their opportunity to learn how to fly. Many hours are spent in writing posts to correct errors generated by people that don't understand their equipment before they started changing how it was set up to function.
 
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Hi Texy, it may or may not be "pilot error". I would imagine the anxiety of landing knowing there's a good chance of a flip could increase the chances of a flip. On occasion I choose to hand catch especially if there's a bit of breeze. Mine has flipped once, not that long ago, but landed in grass so there was no damage.

As PatR has suggested, try repeated take off/land. Does your H land without issue during a return to home?
 
Now that is some complicated stuff. I'll have to read it twice, methinks. I mess with expo and stuff on my racing drones but that doesn't mean I know what I'm doing.
 
Perhaps it's much too soon for you to be adjusting anything in the ST-16 on your own. I advise the most you do is look, take pictures, and post them back here for review. I feel the only calibration process you could safely do at this point in time is the one that resides in the secret menu. It does not provide means to manually adjust transmitter curves and limits. It's not wise to be adjusting how an auto pilot functions when you have yet to learn how to fly as it currently is. It is also not wise to direct people still learning to fly to systems where those people could well and truly screw up their controller, eliminating their opportunity to learn how to fly. Many hours are spent in writing posts to correct errors generated by people that don't understand their equipment before they started changing how it was set up to function.
I'm not about to, thanks. I'm slightly interested in expo curves so I can launch a little smoother, but it's not a priority. That little jump at the beginning isn't a big deal thanks to autonomous hover. I can learn about curves on my Martian II before applying it to my sweet baby that I love so much. I consider myself to be as responsible as I am able when it comes to flying. I make mistakes and learn from them. This flipping over issue is something I'm trying to learn from with no assumption that the machine should be the one adapting. Not yet.
 
Good to know you have experience with other multirotors.

Where launch is concerned, larger aircraft benefit from what some might call an "aggressive" lift off, temporarily using full throttle to get off the ground and up to 10' or so of altitude. This gets the aircraft away from the effects of disturbed air under the props when close to the ground. As one that has built numerous large (800mm and up) large multirotors I've found that what I'll call "timid" launches, where just enough power is applied to just clear the ground, puts the aircraft in a power state that leaves it prone to instability. A low take off throttle position does not provide enough power available to the motors to be as effective in stabilizing a heavier aircraft as might be needed. I've out my share if some more expensive props in the grass and dirt that way during initial test flights. Using a "quick launch" method eliminated those prop strikes.

Believe it or not, I am not being judgmental, but trying to help you achieve success using incremental steps to get there. Not being there to see how things are being done causes me to reflect on my own early experiences with the H and observations of what I've seen others do to form a "best guess" to what you are experiencing. A lot of experience with the ST-16 fills in a lot of gaps. It is set up out of the box with what I call "reverse expo", with the controls more sensitive than they should be just above neutral for those new to it. Then again, it's set up to be very responsive in maneuverability for it's size and that sensitivity might be their way of achieving that goal.
 
PatR, I believe you about the judgmental part. I can be mental, though, so I work on not reading into people as hard as I can.

Anyhow, your advice is good. The part about aggressive liftoff is rather enlightening for me. In the acro world I'm more accustomed to getting into a stable hover that pretty much mows the grass before the real liftoff, but that is because I need to gain my bearings. With the H my bearings are pretty much always gained for me. Thanks for your multiple good posts and load of advice. You're a clear value to this forum.
 
I bet you say that to all the boys[emoji849][emoji12] I got used to writing operational stuff for large UAV's so my writing style can be "a little" abrupt. Combine that with always having to describe new design features to engineers and my text can easily be taken the wrong way.

You guys flying acro/racing quads have all the fun. Your power to weight ratio is better in that size class though. Toss in the higher RPM, reduced mass and inertia of smaller propellers and the aircraft response to small throttle changes is better. Personally, I use a little hover (10'-20') time after getting off the ground for establishing camera settings. Unless there was a well elevated flat spot with an unobstructed view to launch from It's rare that camera settings made on the ground are what they need to be once in the air. That time also helps me refine where I want the H to go and how the aircraft will be sent there.
 
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I have posted about a phenomena that even full size helicopters try to avoid, the ring vortex that forms when the air circulates back over to the top of the rotor blades and kills the lift. Normally it tips to the right and lays down on its side. It is more prevalent when landing on smooth surfaces. Try landing in gravel or grass. The air flow is disrupted and the vortex is dispersed. When calibrating your sensors be sure you are on level ground.
I first noticed this while flying in a city park when landing it was drifting while landing, when it drifted over some freshly mowed grass and it quit drifting. Always be at high alert and prepared to abort your landing and practice landing often. When training for private pilot license practice sessions were referred to as "Crash and Dash".
Flying is the second greatest thrill know to man.... Landing is the first!

You can observe a lot by watching.

Read more at: Yogi Berra Quotes - BrainyQuote
 
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Firmware improvement confirmed. I just tested flight after the recent update. I had to do it right away because, silly me, I have a gig this afternoon. It didn't occur to me to wait until this evening to update the firmware.

Impulsiveness. It's my nemesis. At least I've identified it now.

Anyhow, it flew and the landed. The landing was a little rough. Right at the second half of the last second the H tilted slightly, did a jittery bump off the ground to starboard, touch again with the right side gear, and then put the left gear to the ground and jiggled to a stop. Almost perfect. Perfect recovery, even with the landing being only almost perfect. Yay!
 
When I have had a tipover, there has consistently been a delay in the motors going to
idle, after physically touching down on the ground. I no longer give the H time to start
it's little somersault routine. If the motors don't idle within 2-3 seconds of landing,
I will immediately abort and give full throttle up to re-attempt. I now consider every
landing to potentially be a touch and go, until the props idle.
 
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I'm not going to get into the hand catch debate. People have done it, do it, and will continue to do it. If it works for them that's pretty much the end of the discussion.

As for landings and roll overs, my perception has it happening most with newbies to the H in particular, and other multirotors in general. The higher it sits off the ground the greater the propensity to get rolled when landing. This isn't simply because of the length of the gear, it actually has more to do with pendulum effect, which longer gear accentuates. The real problem, IMO, is that newbs have yet to learn to deal with the sensitivity of the sticks when they are near center, and fail to realize that even tiny displacement of the sticks from the center position will cause the H to respond to a command input. They may not realize they are displacing one or both sticks slightly so when the H touches down it still has movement, or is trying to generate movement, in the lateral plane which causes it to roll.

Once the H is on the ground if the props have not reduced to idle mode they will still generate thrust. Any stick command will cause one or more props to speed up and others to slow down as the H tries to comply with the stick commands it is receiving, which in turn causes the H to tip. Many people do not understand that you are not done flying a multirotor until the propellers have stopped. The H is responding to commands received until the props stop turning.

I've rolled my share of multirotors, and every one was my fault because of inappropriate control input or attempting to land on a steep slope or uneven terrain. I rolled an H once, during initial flights, because of stick sensitivity but learned with that one event to keep the sticks centered after touchdown. There's also mention of how the throttle stick is released in a previous post. This is rather important because if one just lets go of the throttle stick from the fully depressed position before the motors have achieved idle the throttle will spring up and cause motor speed to increase. If not paying attention you may have the pitch/roll stick displaced a little so the H will obey those commands and use that throttle increase to make it happen. Then we have those that fly in strong winds, something I do frequently. When landing (take off too) you'll need to apply control input to counter the wind, and hold that input after landing to prevent the H from being blown over. If those control skills have not been developed, and multirotor newbs certainly have not, they will experience roll overs.

I'm not blaming operators per se, but I do tend to put the cause of the majority of roll overs on lack of experience and understanding, which does originate at the operator level. As skill level increases, roll overs decrease proportionately.

I will then. :) The better you get at something such as landing a somewhat unstable craft, the less mishaps.It only comes with experience whether it be in wind free perfectly flat low grass or 30 mph winds on uneven lumpy ground.

I've had two flips with the H. One was misuse of the Journey mode which I still think was poorly programmed, but I digress. The other was this winter in deep snow which caused no damage; can't say that for the first.

One must have precise stick control and a sense of actually being inside the craft. The temptation to make sudden stick movements without the required ability to be in control of every little reaction to those movements is a sure recipe for disaster.Only pure skill will get you out of those situations that turn into panic attacks.

There is nothing obviously wrong with the H in its current configuration and firmware for landing. Constantly flipping in decent landing conditions is 100% operator dependent.
 
I'll mention facing the nose of the aircraft into the wind when taking off and landing at this point. People that try it will learn it's helpful for better control during those stages of operation.

Glider,
You know I don't disagree at all with your post:)
 
There's some that might consider another activity as the greatest thrill...[emoji56]
VERY Interesting! Flying does not tire you out as bad.
 
There's some that might consider another activity as the greatest thrill...[emoji56]

For me, chewing on a packet of home-made buffalo jerky while drinking a cold beer comes pretty close - certainly lasts a lot longer too....
 
I'll mention facing the nose of the aircraft into the wind when taking off and landing at this point.

I personally recommend facing the TH away from you on takeoff, with you typically 10 to 20 feet away, in Angle Mode. For obvious and not so obvious reasons.

I land the same way. I don't see a problem with wind, unless it's wind you should not be flying in to start with. My choice.:)
 
Rat,

I was trying to keep some things secret. I didn't want to tell anyone it is possible to have the aircraft facing away from the operator and into the wind at the same time;)
 
I personally recommend facing the TH away from you on takeoff, with you typically 10 to 20 feet away, in Angle Mode. For obvious and not so obvious reasons.

I land the same way. I don't see a problem with wind, unless it's wind you should not be flying in to start with. My choice.:)
That's what I did when I was flying in Corpus Christi, Texas last month. They have very steady winds blowing in from the Gulf of Mexico. Twelve miles per hour with gust up to thirty miles per hour and I had no problems landing.
 

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