Of Batteries and the Typhoon H

[PatR]

I’d like to suggest a multi-way conversation be taken to the private message level for any further comments about a certain topic.

For a moment there I thought Doom’s message was a Christmas come early thing with all that red and green text. Wishful thinking I guess[emoji6]

 

[John Hennessy]

ATTENTION TO ALL POSTERS!!!

There is a lot of good information and discussion pro and con for different approaches to modifying the H series of aircraft for using stock batteries and mention of GPS mods and cooling.

Please keep it respectful of each other and leave the personal attacks out of the discussion.

Any further posts that are deemed as personal attacks will be deleted entirely and any useful information contained within will be lost along with it.

Thanks for everyone’s cooperation as we move ahead, and let’s keep this to useful and educational dissemination of information.

Got it Doom mister. Johnno Hennessy. Keep flying on the green side of the grass.

 

[John Hennessy]

I know this technology hadn't been developed yet. I was thinking the best type of battery could be one that could convert fuel into electricity. If there was a way to make such a battery you would fill up the fuel tank and as it flew it would actually get lighter as the fuel tank gets lower. Unlike the batteries are just as heavy as when we first launch. There are thermal generators to convert heat into electricity. Probably just a dream. If i googled how much energy gasoline contains 100 times that of a battery but is 15% efficient. But i can't find recurrence for percent of effecency of thermal engines or thermal generators.

Hi Shockazulu,
I have put an experimental proposal to the University of Tokyo , that the leaders in Solid-state technology and they are looking at it as of 4 months ago. They have been working with these type of battery for 4 years now and are well advanced to the Comercial minaturisation needed for our needs.
Between us all we will a result, in Australia batteries are so hard to get ( mainly safe transport ), and I did a li-ion battery 7 months ago but would only fly for about 6 minutes due to not enough amp capacity. So it will get there eventually. Johnno Hennessy. Recently found Samsung now are making 30 amp continuous draw 18650 li-ion batteries so I will give it another go, li-ion no worries with storage voltages and safe to transport. Johnno Hennessy.

 

[shockazulu]

Recently found Samsung now are making 30 amp continuous draw 18650 li-ion batteries so I will give it another go, li-ion no worries with storage voltages and safe to transport. Johnno Hennessy.

Samsung would be the most experienced with battery issues. Remember the battery issues and recalls. Right now they do have the most money for research since they are the leader in phones.
We could use multiple phone batteries wired in parallel and series configurations to get to the voltage the typhoon h was designed for.
Possible problems are if the battery is capable of being discharged from full to empty in a 30 minute time frame without issues.
Possible good parts. Imaging how many years a phone battery last being used every day. Also not worrying about storage voltage and battery swelling.
Next steps would be I have a galaxy s6 battery the first year they went to non removable batteries. I'll measure and weigh it to see how many it would take to equal same weight or how many to equal same space. Multiply by the cost and it least know how much the experiment will cost before I try to test it.
It looks like 12 batteries at $6 each so $72 experiment. 4 batteries 3.85 volts wired in series will get 15.4 volts.
3 sets of 4 wired in series, now we can wire these 3 sets parallel. 2550mah sets multiplied by 3 will get us 7650mah at 15.4 volts.
Next issue is around 13v the typhoon h will force land.
And at 14.2 volts the low battery warning will begin.
As I research the battery for the galaxy s6 more. It appears to be the same as the lipo batteries we already have.
Am I wrong? It this just a dead end? I think I figured it out. John said they are going to make Li-ion. I should read better before i get all excited.
Other problem is they are designed to go 3 hours with screen on and we plan to draw it down 6 times faster than that.

 

[shockazulu]

I uploaded this file to thingiverse for those who have a 3d printer.

Yuneec Typhoon H Adapter to move camera forward 1 inch to balance drone better. by Shockazulu

Adapter to improve the balance of the Typhoon H for both stock and heavier higher mah batteries. Remove the mount where your camera attaches to the drone and attach your mount back back to the adapter. Now your camera will be located 1 inch forward from where it was. This will improve the...

www.thingiverse.com

Camera Balance Adapter.PNG

• shockazulu
• Jun 27, 2019

Go to thingiverse to get the file to print with 3d printer.
I have uploaded to screen name...

it's an adapter to shift the cameras weight forward.
May allow us to go just a little heavier with the battery and not be to far out of balance.

 

[PatR]

Although it may mitigate center of gravity problems there is still a problem when weight above what the aircraft normally carries is present. For sake of argument we might assume the manufacturer marketed the product at the most efficient weight elative to the power system. As weight increases so does power demand. Motors have to turn faster for the props to generate thrust necessary to maintain flight. All the motors have to work harder even if perfectly balanced.

So more work generates more heat across the entire system. The current demand increases with additional weight so the battery works harder to deliver the demand, creating additional heat underneath the main board. Board components generate even more heat, reducing efficiency. With too much weight the system will not be able to provide enough power to adequately stabilize the aircraft. Hovering becomes wobbly. Even more weight and the aircraft will roll over as soon as it lifts off due to a lack of thrust reserves.

Point being there are limits to what the system can safely deal with and until current loads with a standard system are established we don't have any idea of a typical current demand, therefore we are unable to estimate how much additional load the system might be able to handle across a fused 20A system. We can estimate motor thrust based upon kV ratings and prop sizing but we also need to establish actual motor RPM at max thrust to estimate max lift capacity. Multirotors present a unique set of design requirements, and balancing the system is a big part of them.

 

[shockazulu]

Although it may mitigate center of gravity problems there is still a problem when weight above what the aircraft normally carries is present. For sake of argument we might assume the manufacturer marketed the product at the most efficient weight elative to the power system. As weight increases so does power demand. Motors have to turn faster for the props to generate thrust necessary to maintain flight. All the motors have to work harder even if perfectly balanced.

Another possible use could be used for a battery that may be lighter but unfortunately longer.
If a battery were longer even if lighter it would still move the balance further to the back.
Also stock the Yuneec was shipped tail heavy and with this adapter it brings the drone into perfect balance and could increase the flight time.
But, I have not tested the flight times with stock batteries both with and without this adapter so I am only theorizing.
If anyone who has a 3d printer would like to test I posted file on Thingiverse.
If you do not have 3D printer I will give you one free I would only would like to know the test results.
I work too much to have the time to do accurate scientific testing.

Mostly offering this as a possible tool. Since we may come across an odd shaped battery in the future this could be in our bag of tricks.

 

[shockazulu]

I did a li-ion battery 7 months ago but would only fly for about 6 minutes due to not enough amp capacity. So it will get there eventually. Johnno Hennessy.

I have some ProMark Shadow drones and they use Li-Ion batteries and have similar flight times when I substitute LiPo batteries in them.
Maybe we should revisit the Li-Ion batteries? I don't see any reason it shouldn't work.If they would be safer.
There is this battery Li-ion on eBay

Unbranded Li-Ion Rechargeable Batteries for sale | eBay

Get the best deals on Unbranded Li-Ion Rechargeable Batteries when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices.

www.ebay.com

 

[shockazulu]

1. For sake of argument we might assume the manufacturer marketed the product at the most efficient weight relative to the power system.

2. With too much weight the aircraft will roll over as soon as it lifts off due to a lack of thrust reserves.

These 2 points are awesome.
Point 1. Will shave much time off of our hunt for another battery, if we assume the factory already did much research to get to the maximum optimal battery weight.
Take away is, in any search for an alternative battery, a weight higher than the factory battery will make no increase in flight time.
The camera balance adapter would only come into play if the battery or the adapter caused a significant change to the balance. But not used to correct for a heavier battery. Because a heavier battery should not be in our criteria.

 

[biltno]

There were some new ultrax batteries on eBay
I didn’t look at all of them because I’m busy
However this seller may only be USA

Gens Ace 11.1v 5000 Capacity 3s Voltage 50c Rate Xt60 Traxxas for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Gens Ace 11.1v 5000 Capacity 3s Voltage 50c Rate Xt60 Traxxas at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

rover.ebay.com

 

[PatR]

But, I have not tested the flight times with stock batteries both with and without this adapter so I am only theorizing.....

I will give you one free I would only would like to know the test results.

I work too much to have the time to do accurate scientific testing.

^^^That^^^ is troubling. Not having yet tested the current load with my standard battery is why I haven’t posted the “how to” thread yet.

 

[Phaedrus]

I have some ProMark Shadow drones and they use Li-Ion batteries and have similar flight times when I substitute LiPo batteries in them.
Maybe we should revisit the Li-Ion batteries? I don't see any reason it shouldn't work.If they would be safer.
There is this battery Li-ion on eBay

Unbranded Li-Ion Rechargeable Batteries for sale | eBay

Get the best deals on Unbranded Li-Ion Rechargeable Batteries when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices.

www.ebay.com

That battery is clearly noted as a "LiPo". Don't get yourself twisted up in the nomenclature. Too often people, mainly Chinese websites, refer to lithium polymer (lipo) as lithium ion, which technically they are. But they are not the same cell type. Confusing? Yep. Which is why you need to look closely.

 

[shockazulu]

Shockazulu said
But, I have not tested the flight times with stock batteries both with and without this adapter so I am only theorizing.....

^^^That^^^ is troubling. Not having yet tested the current load with my standard battery is why I haven’t posted the “how to” thread yet.

I was talking about using the camera balance adapter that I posted the link to free download from thingiverse. I have tested that is does bring the typhoon H into perfect balance, since it is shipped tail heavy. What I have not tested is if with this camera rebalancing adapter, does it improve the flight time or not.
I made this camera rebalance adapter for the older case style of battery adapter after I found those really caused the drone to be dangerously it off balance.

 

[Adamg1180]

Ok guys, I bit the bullet and ordered the battery adapter as well as the “orange 7500 mah” battery. It should arrive to my residence in the next 10 days. I will post my results / opinions and thoughts as soon as I get a flight in (fingers crossed)

 

[PatR]

Do us a favor when you get all the parts, post the total weight of the battery and gizmo, along with any rear overhang in millimeters.

 

[Adamg1180]

Do us a favor when you get all the parts, post the total weight of the battery and gizmo, along with any rear overhang in millimeters.

Will do, I plan on weighing my stock power 4 battery and then the new battery with the adapter attached to it.

 

[shockazulu]

That battery is clearly noted as a "LiPo". Don't get yourself twisted up in the nomenclature. Too often people, mainly Chinese websites, refer to lithium polymer (lipo) as lithium ion, which technically they are. But they are not the same cell type. Confusing? Yep. Which is why you need to look closely.

Your right. I zoomed in on photos of the battery and it says lipo on the stickers. What about the promark shadow drone claiming to use Li-ion batteries? What type of batteries are in the galaxy s6? I'd be willing to string together 12 of the cell phone batteries if there were a safety benefit.

 

[Phaedrus]

No clue, haven't looked at that one.

As far as cell phone cells I doubt they can handle any real load. But it would be interesting to see what you get. Samsung lists it as a lipo (Lithium polymer)

 

[shockazulu]

I did a li-ion battery 7 months ago but would only fly for about 6 minutes due to not enough amp capacity. So it will get there eventually. Johnno Hennessy.

Here is photo of ProMark Shadow drone battery that says Li-ion.
I have made and use a battery adapter that allows me to use LiPo batteries.
The thing is they both have similar flight times.
Why I mention this is John Hennessy has tried to use Li-ion without complete success.
John could you share your info on your test? (Batteries used and how they were wired)
I would like to work this angle if Li-ion will be safer and easier to use.
What I would want most of all is to be able to just put my batteries on the charger at the end of the day and have them ready to use the next time I want to use my drone.
I really don"t care what the cost would be to do this. Going through all my batteries and discharging or charging to get to storage voltage, along with planning ahead to get the batteries charged before I use them. This is the biggest P.I.T.A.
Maybe Li-ion also is not the answer.
How is it we can not have these issues with cell phones if they are also LiPo?

20190628_221541.jpg

• shockazulu
• Jun 28, 2019

ProMark Shadow battery showing ion on label

 

[shockazulu]

I spent the night googling info about LiPo vs Li-ion and possibly using cell phone batteries.
I have concluded that until a new technology comes out we are stuck with the good and bad of LiPo.
I will share my favorite battery to use with the Typhoon H with the battery adapter.
Currently $45 and free shipping on eBay
Once I bought 2 on eBay for $65 with free shipping.
Be sure is has the hard case which works really slick with the battery adapter.

6300MAH 5000MAH 4500mAh LiPo Battery Deans for RC Helicopter Airplane Car Boat E | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 6300MAH 5000MAH 4500mAh LiPo Battery Deans for RC Helicopter Airplane Car Boat E at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

I need to spend my time on a project that is almost complete, that will bring the Typhoon H true thermal imaging at a affordable price.
$300 total vs the $3000 to $10000 price tag currently out there for thermal cameras.
Ill keep an eye on this page just in case someone makes a breakthrough. Someone Please.

(if you would like to have a thermal imaging camera on your typhoon H and you are familiar with android phones, flashing roms, and rooting please contact me ill send you the parts for free Ill be testing also, not gonna make someone take the first test flight, but want the feedback criticism that can only come from someone else)